@MayfieldFan I forget how you phrased the question but I think the title of the thread is pretty much the same.

 

The answer to this question has changed over history. Acts says "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit" Mark says "If you repent and are baptized, then you will be saved"

 

So I believe that the way one receives the gift of eternal life is by repenting, being baptized, and living a christian life. This seems to cover John 3:16 which is also pretty blunt.

 

The baptist church disagrees with me. They believe that when you accept Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior, that you are then saved and that baptism is an expression of that internal decision. Some baptists believe that once saved you are always saved.

 

When Jesus is asked by a rich man what one must do to receive eternal life he says follow the ten commandments. But Jesus was living during Old Testament times and still lived by the LAw of Moses and Judaism. The Easter story, Pentecost, and the establishment of Christianity changed things because the Old Testament/Law/written code was nailed to the cross as well.

 

This is a question that has drawn the lines of denominations throughout the past 200 years in this country.

I have several responses, one is b ball fan long, so I won't get to it tonight. But to get started, I think if you ask most christians, how to get eternal life, the most common answer will be John 3:16. And you do mention John 3:16, so I am going to paste it in.

 

John 3:16King James Version (KJV)

 

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Your answer to the question is So I believe that the way one receives the gift of eternal life is by repenting, being baptized, and living a christian life. This seems to cover John 3:16 which is also pretty blunt." You give your answer which includes, repent, baptize, and live a christian life. But John 3:16 says none of these things. There is no repent in John 3:16. There is no baptize, and no live a christian life.

 

J3:16 does give a clear answer. "believeth in him."

 

So what is going on here? I think the gospels are hopelessly confused on this issue which will be the subject of the long post. And I get your answer so far, you have essentially synthesized the answers in Acts, Mark, and John to come up with the answer Repent, Baptize, and Live Christian Life. (you left out "Believeth" but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) And my long post on this will show that the answers really can't be synthesized as there are so many, and they are in some cases contradictory. As a preview, the authors of the new testament books really didn't know the answer to this question.

 

But, back to John 3:16. I don't get it. For god so loved the world. Okay, he loves us. That he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish.... Okay. He really loves us. Gave up his son. So that we can have everlasting life. So, God loves us and he must really want us to have everlasting life, so much so that he is willing to give up his son. Wait, what?

 

 

 

God creates us. And creates us in a way where we all fall short. But he loves us, and wants us to get eternal life. So he has to forgive us...for being the way he created us. But instead of just forgiving us, which would be the simplest way, and the clearest expression of his love, he sends his son who we must believe in or we don't get forgiven. Which is a clearer expression of love? Forgiving someone without conditions, or making the forgiveness contingent upon some belief in a person who lived 2K years ago and about which there is mixed evidence (at best).

 

It could just be that jesus was just some guy who preached some stuff and people liked it. After he died, they had to figure out what that meant, who he was, and shoehorn his life into something that it never was. If there was a god who loved us, he could just give the forgiveness, but if there isn't a god, then the early christians would have to make the death of their favorite preacher "mean" something, and make it part of a "plan".

 

this was the short post

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But, back to John 3:16. I don't get it. For god so loved the world. Okay, he loves us. That he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish.... Okay. He really loves us. Gave up his son. So that we can have everlasting life. So, God loves us and he must really want us to have everlasting life, so much so that he is willing to give up his son. Wait, what?

 

You may have to throw this one at me again. Not quite sure what you're saying.

 

Believing in Jesus also means to obey what he says. He teaches repentance and baptism. Teaching others to believe and e baptized. That is called the great commission.

 

I kind of had a hard time following you entire post this time. The problem probably is with me though. I will say that the gospels do not contradict each other at all. You will not be able to find any example of a contradiction. The authors may focus on different stories and different concepts, but there is absolutely no contradiction anywhere in the 4 gospels.

You may have to throw this one at me again. Not quite sure what you're saying.

 

Believing in Jesus also means to obey what he says. He teaches repentance and baptism. Teaching others to believe and e baptized. That is called the great commission.

 

I kind of had a hard time following you entire post this time. The problem probably is with me though. I will say that the gospels do not contradict each other at all. You will not be able to find any example of a contradiction. The authors may focus on different stories and different concepts, but there is absolutely no contradiction anywhere in the 4 gospels.

 

I was attempting to parse thru the verse to identify the premises supporting the verse.

Premise One. God loves us.

Premise Two. He sent his to so that we could be forgiven, so he must want us to be foregiven.

My point. If he wants us to be forgiven, and he loves us, then he could just forgive us. That would be a loving thing to do. Instead, he makes forgiveness contingent, upon us believing in something that has bad evidence. That doesn't sound like forgiveness at all.

Because we cannot go to heaven if we have sin on us. In the OT the system was set up for specific sacrifices to be done on specific days in specific ways. So he set his son to be the all encompassing perfect sacrifice, so whoever believes in him will be forgiven of sin and allowed to go to heaven. That is why we do not need to perform animal sacrifices on the altar, Jesus was the perfect sacrificial lamb.

Just saying that the whole setup, the rules, don't sound like something that a loving and wise god would come up with. You say we can't go to heaven if we have sin on us. But couldn't god just as the song says, wash the sin away. And if he is gonna was the sin away, the blood of a person seems a bizarre choice.

 

If there is a god, then he can set the heaven rules. And it would seem that god would set reasonable rules.

 

If there is not a god, and no heaven, then all the rules have been "made up" by various people. The whole set up sounds more like this.

 

For example..you say "That is why we do not need to perform animal sacrifices on the altar, Jesus was the perfect sacrificial lamb."

How could a god, capable of creating the entire universe, and can bend the laws of nature, is eternal, loving, and wise come up with a "get into heaven" system where it is possible to say "That is why we do not need to perform animal sacrifices on the altar, Jesus was the perfect sacrificial lamb." Really? the system hinges on a base of animal sacrifices which are in turn improved upon by the sacrifice of a human? Bizarre.

@MayfieldFan Not at all bizarre. Completely consistent. We as people sin. Lambs are sin as innocent. In order to forgive the sinful, the innocent lamb needs to be sacrificed. The OT people sinned so much and were incapable of following the rules, so God decided to send his son to be the perfect lamb. The perfect lamb was sacrificed for all sins in the world. When you believe, repent, are baptized then you take part in that sacrificed and the blood of the lamb washes sin away.

 

You may think that another way of doing things would have been better, and that is fine. I feel the same way about certain aspects of my doctrine. But the word "bizarre" does not fit at all.

If he wants us to be forgiven, and he loves us, then he could just forgive us. That would be a loving thing to do. Instead, he makes forgiveness contingent, upon us believing in something that has bad evidence. That doesn't sound like forgiveness at all.

How dangerous would the world be then? I would be terrified to live in a world where everyone knew they could win and just be forgiven automatically. How chaotic would that be?

@MayfieldFan Not at all bizarre. Completely consistent. We as people sin. Lambs are sin as innocent. In order to forgive the sinful, the innocent lamb needs to be sacrificed. The OT people sinned so much and were incapable of following the rules, so God decided to send his son to be the perfect lamb. The perfect lamb was sacrificed for all sins in the world. When you believe, repent, are baptized then you take part in that sacrificed and the blood of the lamb washes sin away.

 

You may think that another way of doing things would have been better, and that is fine. I feel the same way about certain aspects of my doctrine. But the word "bizarre" does not fit at all.

 

How dangerous would the world be then? I would be terrified to live in a world where everyone knew they could win and just be forgiven automatically. How chaotic would that be?

 

I will concede that my description of this idea as "bizarre" is an opinion, but I stand by it. You claim it's consistent, but consistency doesn't mean it is not bizarre. I am glad that many humans seem capable of exercising a more reasonable and loving forgiveness than god.

 

On the second part, about being terrified to live in a world where people could just sin and then be saved automatically. That is precisely the system you espouse. Take the world's worst child rapist. He can spend his entire life raping, torturing and killing children and need only to believe in his last moment on his deathbed. Meanwhile, if the parents of his victims lose their faith in the depression and suffering they feel upon the murder of their children, well, they go to hell. The system you believe in is not just or moral. It is not based on forgiveness, which is freely given out of love, but rather on subservience, claimed by a jealous and vengeful god.

I just read today's postings and thought that it might be a good time in the discussion to post this Sam Harris quote.

 

It truly is not meant to be an insult but rather something to seriously consider.

 

If someone had never heard their entire life such beliefs before, or had been indoctrinated with them to the point they seemed believable, common, and second nature along with sharing them with a community of others, and someone out of the blue presented them, quite often they'd be looked at as just as bizarre as some cultish ideas and beliefs that would immediately be passed off by most as downright craziness.

 

"Religion allows perfectly decent and sometimes intelligent sane people to believe by the billions what only lunatics could believe on their own."

I do not think something can be both bizarre and consistent. Bizarre means a deviation from the norm or weird.

 

I am not sure if you are reading my responses closely enough. Somehow when I said “When you believe, repent, and are baptized then you take part in that sacrifice and the blood of the lamb washes your sin away” you got the idea that I believe a child rapist and murder can go to jail, and after a lifetime of sin can believe on his deathbed.

 

How does that fit my response of believing, repenting, and being baptized?

Edited March 18, 201610 yr by PP1

@MayfieldFan, your description of the Christian view is a caricature and not representative of Christian teaching. Be that as it may, I am not interested in that per se.

 

I am interested in your perspective as an atheist. Are you critical of Christian teaching on this point because, in your view, Christians claim that their worldview upholds a just universe but it doesn't actually deliver on that promise?

 

I cannot imagine that you, as an atheist believe in a moral universe. Is there any ultimate justice from your point of view? In your view, a terrible human being could rape, pillage, and kill his way to having a powerful kingdom and incredible wealth. Along the way he could take all the beautiful women he wanted, kill their husbands and children, and live in comfort the rest of his days dying peacefully in his sleep fat and happy at a ripe old age. There is no recompense for him. He had his cake and ate it too at the expense of the lives of many. When he dies, he is just gone. No retribution for him. He escaped any and all bad consequences of his actions. There is no punishment that awaits him. He simply ceases to exist with no consciousness.

 

At the same time, a very humble woman who didn't have two nickles to rub together lives under this man's brutal rule. Though she has nothing, she spends time caring for the sick and lame and blind. She spends what little she has to be sure that others are cared for and have food and shelter. She dies of starvation at the end of her days because she took ill and had no one to care for her. Her death is the same as the murder and rapist we described before. She too dies and ceases to exist with no consciousness. She receives no reward for her life of faith and sacrifice. Her end is exactly as the brutal criminal's end though she was a saint.

 

You do not claim that justice exists in the atheist worldview do you? Would you say that the atheist worldview is more just than that of the Christian worldview? Or are you just saying that there is no justice in the universe and the Christian should stop pretending that his/her worldview allows for it?

 

Just trying to understand your position here.

As promised, here is a long post, covering verses about eternal life. Careful readers will not the varying answers, and contradictions, and perhaps even conclude that the bible does not provide a good answer. I know of no way to do it other than to just lay the verses out there. Commentary in blue for UK.

 

Luke 10:25-28King James Version (KJV)

 

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

I put these in no particular order. Here Jesus says to love the lord with heart, soul, strength, and mind and to love your neighbor. Do that and you shall live. Nothing really wrong with this answer, but it differs from many below. How to get into heaven should be the one thing the bible is clear about.

 

Luke 18

 

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

Second answer: none of that love god with heart etc stuff. This time it is follow a couple of the commandments AND sell all your stuff. Now we discussed this in an earlier thread and the consensus view was that Jesus really didn't mean that you had to sell your stuff, but it was more of a suggestion to be charitable. In any event, the same direct question twice, two very different answers.

 

Luke 14

 

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

This answer requires us to hate our parents. The previous one said to honor them. So we got to honor them and hate them. It does state you have to forsake all you have too.

 

John 6

 

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Here is a brand new answer, different from all the rest. If you want to "hath eternal life", eat the flesh and drink the blood.

 

Mathew 18

 

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Be converted and become as little children. Again, an answer unlike any of the others. To the extent the answers differ, they also conflict. So are we to be converted, become as little children, AND keep some of the commandments, and sell our stuff, and honor our parents, and hate our parents, and eat the flesh and drink the blood and love god with all our heart? Or can we just be converted and become as little children?

 

John 3

 

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

And yet another entirely new answer: Gotta be born again. With some questionable wind analogy from Jesus, kinda easy to tell from where the wind cometh, just throw some sand in the air.

 

Mathew 5

 

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Sigh. I thought I had a good handle on the answer, with all the stuff above. Now I have to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?

 

Romans 10

 

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

Okay, this one is close to John 3:16. But must confess with thy mouth. And believe Jesus was raised from the dead by god. Why couldn't Jesus just raise himself btw? Anyway, remember the mouth thing, cause we won't see it again.

 

John 5

 

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Here we have to believe on god. And you can't say god/jesus are the same, because the wording differentiates between the two.

 

John 6

 

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Here we have to believe in the son. Author(s) of John changed in the span of one chapter.

 

Mathew 25

 

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

 

Something new. Gotta give stuff to poor people or you go into "everlasting punishment." But what if I believe on god? or the son? or....

 

 

Mathew 7

 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Must do the will of my father. Easy to understand. Totally different from all the rest. I sure hope his will doesn't include slaughtering any surviving Amalkites.

 

Matthew 19

 

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

 

This is a repeat from Luke. The commandments are different though.

 

Matthew 5

 

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

So what if I am pure in heart but don't confess with my mouth? or hate my parents?

 

Luke 6

 

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

 

Can't condemn, judge, or fail to forgive

 

Mark 11

 

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses

 

 

 

1 John 2

 

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

 

 

I'll keep it short, () If there were a god, and the bible his book, the answer to the question of how to gain eternal life would have to be more consistent. We just think John 3:16 is the answer. And it the answer, or at least one of two dozen answers.

I do not think something can be both bizarre and consistent. Bizarre means a deviation from the norm or weird.

 

I am not sure if you are reading my responses closely enough. Somehow when I said “When you believe, repent, and are baptized then you take part in that sacrifice and the blood of the lamb washes your sin away” you got the idea that I believe a child rapist and murder can go to jail, and after a lifetime of sin can believe on his deathbed.

 

How does that fit my response of believing, repenting, and being baptized?

 

It is standard Christian belief that anyone can be saved, and at the last moments of their life. If you don't believe that, and I assumed too much, my apologies.