Learn something new everyday. Just seems like nothing more then a way to game the system. Where are the real positive benefits to allow this? Not saying there isn't a scenario where it's a good thing but sure can't think of one.

 

A fairly common one is a person adopted as a child will, as an adult, seek out his or her natural parents and then ultimately make the decision to be adopted back into his or her natural family.

 

It also eliminates a lot of potential problems in inheritance in some states.

Im not trying to go misinformed. What they did is yuck to me, does it matter or going to change my life. NO, its still my opinion to think what I may of it, which is disgusting.

But I also mentioned that anything now days is disgusting. It goes from Child porn, child peds, to what we see on news everyday.

Thats the problem, anyone who doesnt agree with the supposed to be accepted norm, is wrong.

I dont bow down to political correctness or bow down to having stuff shoved in my face trying to make me accept stuff I feel is wrong.

 

So you think that what they did is wrong...fair enough as that is your opinion.

 

Aside from a possible legitimate objection to them gaming the system, help me see the "yuck" and "disgusting" part of it all that you are seeing in it?

 

Are you deeming it as "yuck" and "disgusting" with some sound reason to do so, or is it for you just more fun to deem it as such because that's the way you normally roll regarding anything that you gives you a slight doorway, or with your history, none at all to do so?

 

I'm assuming that you by now know the particulars of the story, but your commentary is still is more in line with perhaps a reaction to a biological father and son, or a regular adoptive father and son seeking to marry, and not what the story describes.

 

How in your assessment is two grown adult men seeking to protect their union and rights, and even by doing so by using a legal loophole, resulting in a "yuck" and "disgusting" reaction from you?

So you think that what they did is wrong...fair enough as that is your opinion.

 

Aside from a possible legitimate objection to them gaming the system, help me see the "yuck" and "disgusting" part of it all that you are seeing in it?

 

Are you deeming it as "yuck" and "disgusting" with some sound reason to do so, or is it for you just more fun to deem it as such because that's the way you normally roll regarding anything that you gives you a slight doorway, or with your history, none at all to do so?

 

I'm assuming that you by now know the particulars of the story, but your commentary is still is more in line with perhaps a reaction to a biological father and son, or a regular adoptive father and son seeking to marry, and not what the story describes.

 

How in your assessment is two grown adult men seeking to protect their union and rights, and even by doing so by using a legal loophole, resulting in a "yuck" and "disgusting" reaction from you?

 

Im not for gay marriage or gay anything. Its yuck to me.

Can I live with it, yes, do I condone it, no. I will never accept it or condone it or be alright with it.

Does that stop me from being friends of gays, no, but Im certainly not invited to their parties or houses either.

The gays I know understand I dont accept it and dont flaunt it in front of me as I dont flaunt my marriage or things like that in front of them, nor do I preach to them about how I feel its a sin.

I treat them no different than others, but I will never agree or understand it.

[/b]

 

1.-So has what they've done directly prevented giving children a loving home?

 

2.-I support what these guys did because as a gay guy I can identify with how the law previously left them with limited options to legally protect themselves. if SSM hadn't been legalized, I can't say that I personally wouldn't do the exact same they did if I were in the same situation. 4 years ago my partner passed away after we had been together for 20 years. Thankfully his estate was settled without too much issue, and although I hadn't ever considered this, but if he has previously adopted me so that we could be legally related, the process that I went through to finalize his estate would have been a million times less complicated than it was. As I had stated in another post, his family was accepting, so they did not present me with any obstacles, however just the simple fact that we were not legally related presented me hoops to jump through that wouldn't have existed if we had been.

 

3.-You're right... I have not adopted or been through the process and have no idea how any negative stories affect it. Enlighten me if you will how what these two guys did had a negative effect on the process. You sound rather strong regarding this topic, so I'm assuming that you can provide some examples.

 

1. Possibly in the future.

 

2. So you are saying that you are for circumventing the system as long as it favors your position. Guess we should just circumvent all laws we disagree with.

 

3. Remember the woman from Tennessee who sent her adopted Russian son back to Russia on a plane stating she didn't want him? That sent tremors through the adoption community. It's near impossible for one to understand how every negative happening in adoption affects the process in some way. Groups like UNICEF look for stories like the above mentioned to further their anti-adoption drum beat. I'll bet you had no idea UNICEF took that stance.

1. Possibly in the future.

 

2. So you are saying that you are for circumventing the system as long as it favors your position. Guess we should just circumvent all laws we disagree with.

 

3. Remember the woman from Tennessee who sent her adopted Russian son back to Russia on a plane stating she didn't want him? That sent tremors through the adoption community. It's near impossible for one to understand how every negative happening in adoption affects the process in some way. Groups like UNICEF look for stories like the above mentioned to further their anti-adoption drum beat. I'll bet you had no idea UNICEF took that stance.

 

1. Mere assumption and likely unfounded fear, and what you are foreseeing, even if in the rare chance that you are correct, won't be happening because SSM has now diminished the need for anyone to utilize this avenue to protect their rights, but with that said I fail to see even if this type thing were to continue how it would prevent giving children, as you put it, a loving home. I don't see the connection.

 

2. Not all laws can or necessarily should be circumvented depending on whether or not they are infringing on the legitimate rights of others, but in this case from my perspective, I can see why these guys did what they did for the protection of their rights, and all the while they didn't break any laws in doing so, nor did they infringe upon anyone else's rights in the process.

 

Although you are assuming from your perspective that it has somehow disrupted the adoptive process and its intended purpose, I still haven't been provided any evidence from you or anyone else that it has, still making your reaction to it to appear to me as an over reaction with you trumpeting unfounded worries, while hoping that your position on the matter trumps mine in some attempt to make me eventually coincide my view of the matter with yours.

 

You still haven't provoked in me that "ah ha moment" dissuading me from seeing that these adult guys did anything wrong by seeing to it that they were legally protecting themselves in the only way possible during a time that the law gave them little to no options to do so. For me it's not about circumventing the law as long as if favors my position, but I've not a problem with finding a loophole that favors one's position as long as it's not infringing on the rights of others.

 

On the other hand for example, Kim Davis tried to manipulate the law for her personal religious reasons all the while infringing upon the rights of others, and there were no loopholes for her to circumvent, landing her in jail for her resistance to abide by the established law that she was sworn in to uphold. She is a perfect example of someone who for their own personal position was directly aiming at effecting others' rights in her attempt to game the system. She failed at what she attempted to do because she found no avenues to make it work in her favor, and thankfully so because though she hoped to make it all about her and her personal religious beliefs, and it was not all about her. She's most certainly free to have her own personal religious beliefs, but using those beliefs to infringe upon the rights of others is problematic.

 

3. I'm not aware of the "woman from Tennessee" story of which you speak, but how is this example anyway related to two adult men doing what they did to protect their rights?

 

You're right, it's near impossible for one to understand how every "negative happening" in adoption affects the process in some way. I'm not viewing what these guys did as a "negative happening" nor do I see where it has negatively effected the process for its initial intended purposes.

 

If you're linking UNICEF to the story of the "woman from Tennessee" of which you speak, you likely have a legitimate beef regarding how that helped play into UNICEF's anti-adoption drum beat, yet again what's that got to do with what these two adult men have done to protect their rights?

 

Apples and Oranges

Im not for gay marriage or gay anything. Its yuck to me.

Can I live with it, yes, do I condone it, no. I will never accept it or condone it or be alright with it.

Does that stop me from being friends of gays, no, but Im certainly not invited to their parties or houses either.

The gays I know understand I dont accept it and dont flaunt it in front of me as I dont flaunt my marriage or things like that in front of them, nor do I preach to them about how I feel its a sin.

I treat them no different than others, but I will never agree or understand it.

 

Considering that homosexuality is as real and natural as anything, and has always existed and always will, your personal disapproval of it will never have any effect on it becoming non-existent, just as my personal frustration with many in the world refusing to understand will not completely have any effect to all of the sudden having the world in unison in a flash just get it.

 

You understand it more now that you have in the past as not being a choice, but rather just a genuine reality for a significant number of humans worldwide, just as some people are left handed and others are right handed by no choice of their own.

 

If I were to believe and could be convinced that it was a choice, gosh I would've long ago decided to be gay only on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and straight every other day of the week. Obviously it isn't, so that option was not available to me, just as it wasn't to you.

 

You've spent years viewing it as wrong for whatever reasons, and habitually likely will continue to do so considering your emphasis to deem it as disgusting, and will ultimately die feeling the same way no matter what newer information you have available to you to process to help you better understand.

 

Although it is a true reality, you've concluded that you will never accept, condone or be alright with it.

 

If that's where you are, that's just where you are.

 

With your repetitive outward disapproval of it, are you aiming to one day have the world take notice of your stance with the hopes that it will all just go away, or that others will come to share in your disapproval of it with you? If so, good luck with that, and also I wonder how is having homosexuals in the world wrongly effecting you?

 

So, is homosexuality wrong and unnatural though history has proved otherwise, or do you just have a personal struggle in accepting it?

 

Considering that it is as real and natural a part of many many people, It's obviously the latter, so what could be the root of your struggle in accepting it? Is it merely that many years of objection has you locked into a certain view, and changing perspective quickly or gradually is out of your range?

 

Whatever it is, you are certainly free to stay right where you are if that's what makes you comfortable.

 

For me personally it's not important that you specifically ever come to accept it.

 

For you it obviously isn't either, and though you theoretically could be in a neutral zone about it, you opt to repetitively voice your disapproval of it, but is it more a factor that you are incapable of understanding and accepting the reality of it even though you've been provided with numerous facts and opportunities to reprocess it to do so, or is it just more comfortable and more fun for you to stay put as it gives you something to object to to aid you in feeling mightier and better than others about?

 

If it is, it's not coming across much that way, and rather just more like a display that you have some disturbing personal issues. My sincere sympathies to you if that's the case as none of us are perfect and many of us have personal character flaws that we just wished that we could conquer.

 

Could the issue with it possibly not be so much with it in itself, but your own personal issue and objection with it, or anything else that gives you the opportunity to obsess over and express you disapproval of?

 

Weather or not you ever do actually come to accept and understand it, just as you have stated, you better get used to it because it is a reality, and for the rest of your life you will likely be reminded of that, which will likely ultimately continue to plague you and provoke a reaction of objection. Your frustration now is that you can't accept it while it will forever be a reality.

 

You OK with that?

 

Considering your history of obsessing over and seeking out and speaking out about things that displeases you, I'm guessing that you are.

 

Why am I so passionate about the topic?

 

Because I've spent years of listening to and observing the negative byproducts of myth, prejudice, misunderstanding, misinformation, ridicule, and all out hatred from the likes of people like you and even worse, and I'm hoping along with many others that we can one day all live in a world that finally understands the reality of it, preventing many from having to live an existence riddled with unnecessary discrimination and unfounded ridiculous obstacles, and above all hoping that there can be an end to confused frightened teenagers from committing suicide because of the suffocating pressure they are experiencing while they feel that there's never a chance for them to be happy in this often hateful world. I'm happy to say that even this is most likely becoming less of a problem and tragedy in today's more accepting world, but still nonetheless a sad reality.

 

Sorry to inconvenience you for the sake of the freedom of numerous and countless others who aim to live in a more accepting world.

 

Has opening real dialogue about it helped?

 

Judging by how things were years ago compared to now, I'd say yes it has been largely effective.

 

Whereas once it felt like fighting a losing frustrating battle, and sometimes it still does, the pendulum has definitely swung in better favor for many gays, and now the fight that those who object are campaigning have increasingly become their losing battle to fight, while more and more heterosexual people have allowed themselves to have a better understanding.

 

It's not just gays anymore advancing the world in its understanding as it is also understanding straights helping to advocate a more sound realistic approach as through honest discussion of the topic and realness, many now have had the opportunity to see and understand the reality of it.

 

It's likely now a combination of people truly understanding mixed with folks in general not feeling socially comfortable to be viewed as ignorant and backward regarding the topic. In a way it's partly become trendy for some to be acceptant. That's been somewhat of a weird byproduct of the new accepting world, but sincere or not, I'll take it as it is at least an example of people moving in a more realistic direction.

 

Some still resist and feel quite at home in keeping with their disapproval just as they always have, and though many have come around, there will still be never ending examples of those who can't, and won't budge from their position. Whether or not I'm particularly thrilled by what I consider to be ignorance or mere misunderstanding that adults aim to pass along to their offspring, however disturbing, they are most certainly free to do so.

 

I've nothing against straight people, and while they've comfortably lead their lives, as they should be able to, and speak freely without fear of being ostracized, ridiculed, shunned, and abandoned, it's peculiar that when gays seek the same freedom, it can be considered by many as "throwing their "lifestyle" in others faces". I don't consider straights as "throwing their "lifestyle" in others faces", and can only wish for the same fortune of freedom without the nagging feeling that I'm somehow imposing on others' rights by being my real true self. Some, but not all straights haven't the first iota of a clue of what a cramped stifling feeling that it is to always be on guard about the realness of one's self. After a while you can hardly blame some gays for developing an attitude of "To hell with it, deal with it for your unacceptance is your problem, not mine".

 

I've got enough sense while in mixed company as to when I can be real, or when it might be imprudent of me to reveal much about myself, and probably many times more so than many straights who flippantly say anything they want to without care on consideration of others because they've typically been awarded the all out freedom their entire lives to do so.

 

I'm mostly conscious of when reservation is the order of the day, but through life experiences I can't say the same about lots of others, gay or straight. That's not to say that I've never overstepped my boundaries, but when I do I usually immediately realize that I have, and feel the need through a sense of embarrassment no matter the topic to be apologetic about it. That's not me being ashamed of being gay, but just having enough sense to know what topics on the table are acceptable or not in certain situations.

 

Because I am so outspoken here it might give the illusion and impression that I'm some big flag waving, parade walking, finger snapping activist that wears my sexual orientation and identity on my sleeve, but those who've met me know that this could not be further from the truth. I've walked this life pretty much as a non-descript dude that people who have figured me out have mostly done so only if I've chosen to allow them to.

 

While a teen the media and society had be believing that there must be some mistake because I wasn't and have never been obviously outwardly gay like the world would have me and the rest of the world believe that all gays are. Sure there are many that just have a certain way about them that screams gay, (and for them that's just the way it is), but the world, still I believe, has little clue that there are so many naturally gay people in this world that even the best gaydar cannot detect.

 

For some it's not important for others to know, and they are content with living a private life without blasting their personal self to others. For many others they felt pressured into a straight marriage for fear of abandonment by family and friends that to the outside world they're as straight appearing as the next guy, but inside they live in constant fear of exposure and have serious difficulties in processing just who it is that they are. Many have died in that suffocating closest, but thankfully in today's more open accepting world, less and less of that should happen in the future, however I've no doubt that it still will to some capacity.

 

Although I might not be that obvious in appearance (at least I don't think that I am), my life is not one that is of a person suffocating in a closet, and I feel no particular reason to hide. That's not to say that I leave the house daily with the attitude of "Watch out world here comes the gay guy who will make for sure that by the beginning and end of the day you all know that I am".

 

Many of you might recall that for years I kept myself closeted on this site, but after hearing way too much of complete nonsense and misinformation, one day I busted out with "Watch out world here comes the gay guy who will make for sure that by the beginning and end of the day you will all know that I am".

 

Because the real world rarely ever provided me with the opportunity to scream out loud all of the things that I had bottled up for years about how ignorant so many can be, all of the sudden I couldn't find any reason why I couldn't or shouldn't once and for all voice all that bottled up crap here. I hadn't been closeted in my real life for years, but because I mostly approached this site for sports reasons I found no reason to reveal myself here until I started perusing the other forums, and damned if I all of the sudden I felt like I had a mountain of things to get off of my chest. If I initially shocked anyone, I also shocked myself because I literally never foresaw me ever getting all wrapped up in anything but basketball, and certainly not other topics, or even talking myself.

 

As you all know, the flood gates had opened and I haven't stopped since.

1. Mere assumption and likely unfounded fear, and what you are foreseeing, even if in the rare chance that you are correct, won't be happening because SSM has now diminished the need for anyone to utilize this avenue to protect their rights, but with that said I fail to see even if this type thing were to continue how it would prevent giving children, as you put it, a loving home. I don't see the connection.

 

2. Not all laws can or necessarily should be circumvented depending on whether or not they are infringing on the legitimate rights of others, but in this case from my perspective, I can see why these guys did what they did for the protection of their rights, and all the while they didn't break any laws in doing so, nor did they infringe upon anyone else's rights in the process.

 

Although you are assuming from your perspective that it has somehow disrupted the adoptive process and its intended purpose, I still haven't been provided any evidence from you or anyone else that it has, still making your reaction to it to appear to me as an over reaction with you trumpeting unfounded worries, while hoping that your position on the matter trumps mine in some attempt to make me eventually coincide my view of the matter with yours.

 

You still haven't provoked in me that "ah ha moment" dissuading me from seeing that these adult guys did anything wrong by seeing to it that they were legally protecting themselves in the only way possible during a time that the law gave them little to no options to do so. For me it's not about circumventing the law as long as if favors my position, but I've not a problem with finding a loophole that favors one's position as long as it's not infringing on the rights of others.

 

On the other hand for example, Kim Davis tried to manipulate the law for her personal religious reasons all the while infringing upon the rights of others, and there were no loopholes for her to circumvent, landing her in jail for her resistance to abide by the established law that she was sworn in to uphold. She is a perfect example of someone who for their own personal position was directly aiming at effecting others' rights in her attempt to game the system. She failed at what she attempted to do because she found no avenues to make it work in her favor, and thankfully so because though she hoped to make it all about her and her personal religious beliefs, and it was not all about her. She's most certainly free to have her own personal religious beliefs, but using those beliefs to infringe upon the rights of others is problematic.

 

3. I'm not aware of the "woman from Tennessee" story of which you speak, but how is this example anyway related to two adult men doing what they did to protect their rights?

 

You're right, it's near impossible for one to understand how every "negative happening" in adoption affects the process in some way. I'm not viewing what these guys did as a "negative happening" nor do I see where it has negatively effected the process for its initial intended purposes.

 

If you're linking UNICEF to the story of the "woman from Tennessee" of which you speak, you likely have a legitimate beef regarding how that helped play into UNICEF's anti-adoption drum beat, yet again what's that got to do with what these two adult men have done to protect their rights?

 

Apples and Oranges

 

You are correct about one thing in your post, you have no clue as to how negative happenings in adoption can affect them. You don't view what they did as negative, I disagree.

 

You won't change my mind nor I yours. Wasn't trying to to begin with.

 

While I understand their reasons for what they did, the made a mockery of adoption and scammed the system. You are fine with the end justifying the means, I am not.

 

For those that know me, they will tell you I am honest to a fault. I expect the same from others. I don't consider that a bad thing.

You are correct about one thing in your post, you have no clue as to how negative happenings in adoption can affect them. You don't view what they did as negative, I disagree.

 

You won't change my mind nor I yours. Wasn't trying to to begin with.

 

While I understand their reasons for what they did, the made a mockery of adoption and scammed the system. You are fine with the end justifying the means, I am not.

 

For those that know me, they will tell you I am honest to a fault. I expect the same from others. I don't consider that a bad thing.

 

I was only correct about one thing in my post?

 

Ah...you're being too generous.

 

You say that you were not trying to change my view to begin with yet in your first three exchanges with me you said...

 

"It would be nice if some would stop defending and try to understand something from a different perspective for a change",

 

and...

 

"Again, maybe you should try viewing things from a different perspective",

 

and...

 

"I can see just fine. I fear it is you that can't see the forest for the trees".

 

...And then the one thing that you deemed correct that you sarcastically gave me credit for in my post is the thing that I echoed what you said about it being near impossible for one to understand how every negative happening in adoption affects the process in some way while you included that I had no clue as to how negative happenings in adoption can affect them. So if I was echoing you, does this also mean that you too have no clue?

 

You are correct in one thing as well is that you will not change my mind, nor I yours.

 

You say they made a mockery of adoption and scammed the system. You saying so doesn't just make it so, that's just your take on it. Scamming the system would somehow indicate that they broke some sort of law, would it not?

 

What law was it that they broke?

 

They protected their rights while hurting no one else. You see it as technically wrong, but what wrong did they technically commit?

 

I'm guessing that somehow you feel duped by what they did, but perhaps for their entire lives they too felt duped by laws and society that sought to do nothing but complicate their lives.

 

In the past, and during these men's lifetime, in some countries including the US and the UK it was actually illegal to be gay, and some who were found out to be either were, even into the 1960's, subjected to electric shock or chemical castration.

 

Although it was the law would you have been OK with gays in the past duping the law by lying about themselves being gay to avoid what the law ultimately had in store for them, or would you have considered their lying scamming, circumventing and gaming the system for the sake of avoiding a lifetime of long term physical damage?

 

If we're talking about the ends justifying the means, I'd have a real hard time taking offense to what these men did to protect their rights during a time when the law gave them no option to do so. Things for gays in more modern times weren't nearly as awful as they had been for gays long ago, but it wasn't until 2015 in the United States there was finally a major action of legal acceptance alloted to them, and if you're not aware of it, we are still in the year 2015, and it actually took that long for gay's inalienable rights to be granted to them.

 

You OK with that and that it took that long?

 

In the bigger picture if deciding between what they did to protect their rights compared to your disapproval of it for fear of assumed negative affects that haven't come to light or you feeling that they scammed the system, I'd have to side with these guys as they hurt no one in the process by what they did. They were long overdue deserving of these rights freely awarded to straight people for centuries. Now perhaps finally they can legally marry, but in the meantime I've no problem with them under these circumstances having done what they did to protect the rights that they've long deserved.

 

Bigger picture.

 

Yeah I'd say that the ends justified the means.

Learn something new everyday. Just seems like nothing more then a way to game the system. Where are the real positive benefits to allow this? Not saying there isn't a scenario where it's a good thing but sure can't think of one.

 

A fairly common one is a person adopted as a child will, as an adult, seek out his or her natural parents and then ultimately make the decision to be adopted back into his or her natural family.

 

It also eliminates a lot of potential problems in inheritance in some states.

 

Here's another scenario for you ...

 

My daughter, who is not my biological daughter, has been my daughter since she was 5 years old, when her mother and I were together. She has called me Dad most of her life. You will find no father and daughter closer than we are.

 

When she was a teenager, her mother committed suicide. Mrs. S and I gained guardianship of her until she graduated high school. However, we never formally adopted her.

 

It wasn't until after, as an adult, she was in the hospital, unable to make decisions for herself, and I was unable to make decisions for her regarding her care, that she asked me and Mrs. S to adopt her. Which we promptly did.

 

I have no biological children, though I do have a stepson. After the adoption, she basically became my sole heir. If something happens to Mrs. S she can make decisions regarding my care, too.

W/O quoting that long response.

 

I have learned a lot about the gay lifestyle and gay rights and understand it more now than in the past.

 

I also see how it is trying to be pushed that its ok to be gay and how the media allows it and trys to make it look like the cool thing to do.

 

I also will never change my mind as it a sinful lifestyle.

W/O quoting that long response.

 

I have learned a lot about the gay lifestyle and gay rights and understand it more now than in the past.

 

I also see how it is trying to be pushed that its ok to be gay and how the media allows it and trys to make it look like the cool thing to do.

 

I also will never change my mind as it a sinful lifestyle.

 

If you're equating the increasing number of straight people who have opened their minds to come to finally allowing themselves to understand the reality of homosexuality as seeing it as "a cool thing to do", you're terribly missing the point of acceptance.

 

The straight friends who I have that are acceptant of me are well aware of their own personal sexual orientation and are quite comfortable with that, and it's ridiculous to think that they would forego what comes naturally to them in their desires to seek out same sex encounters for the sake of being trendy.

 

Gays seeking acceptance doesn't mean that anyone is trying to encourage anyone to be anything they are not. They are hoping that people come to understand that sexual orientation in not a choice and is something that comes naturally to each person, gay or straight so that the ridiculous unnecessary discrimination and hatred that they have in the past been subjected to could one day just finally stop.

 

With the vast majority of the people in the world being straight, so many people in the past have misunderstood and have viewed it as abnormal and unnatural, concluding it to be immoral because it is different than being straight just like years ago because so many more people are right handed it was viewed by many that left-handedness was a sign of the devil.

 

That of course sounds ridiculous to everyone now just like it is increasingly sounding ridiculous to many that homosexuality is wrong and a sin, but because there were less left handed people, they were subjected to negative reactions from those indoctrinated by religion to see and believe it that way.

 

I wonder if left handed New York Mets player Daniel Murphy, and outspoken Christian against homosexuality is aware of this, and if he'd think it odd that anyone would "disagree" with him for being left handed, just like he "disagrees" with people for being gay?

 

Weather you are aware of it or not, you seeing it as a sin is a byproduct of being raised in a society and religion that deemed it as such because they did not understand it, so before having the ability to think for yourself about the reality of it, you were subjected, just like many others, to the myth that is was wrong, and this myth has been ingrained in you.

 

With that, it's understandable why you feel the way you do about it. As you have stated you will never change your mind about it being sinful, so the indoctrination that you were subjected to obviously was very effective in helping you frame your view. I guess that you'd like to believe that you think for yourself, but your training was too powerful for this to be true.

 

The word "lifestyle" is sort of ridiculous. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, just as heterosexuality is, and you don't hear heterosexuality being referred to as the 'straight lifestyle" so why does homosexuality get the tag "gay lifestyle"? When I used the word lifestyle in my last post, it was basically done sarcastically for anyone who was capable of following how and why I used the term.

 

It's not necessary for you to ever change your view, but if you're interested in having any self-awarness you might like to know that your view wasn't framed completely from yourself, and if you also have any self-awarness you would understand that you didn't choose to be straight, just as those who are gay didn't choose to be gay.

 

Imagine how you'd feel if you were told your whole life that the sexual orientation that came naturally to you and that you didn't choose was wrong. I don't know if you can wrap your mind about how frustrating that can be for those who with no choice of their own were gay and heard that their whole lives, and were subjected to prejudice etc... because of.

 

If you have the self-awarness of yourself and the fact that you didn't choose your sexual orientation, perhaps somewhere in your thinking you might be able to understand that neither did gay people, but because you are in the majority you weren't subjected to the ridicule about it, but those who are gay and in the minority have been and still are.

 

Some say that even if it's not a choice, acting on it is, and is sinful. Well if the foundation of one's view, however not really very logically based, is that it's immoral and wrong, then it's easy to see where one would extrapolate from that foundation of thought that it is wrong, but those who are gay just find it as a natural part of their sexuality, so following their inclinations doesn't at all seem sinful, and it seems illogical that one would be naturally gay, but must not act on it because others who do not understand deem it as wrong.

 

Do you follow?

 

Hindus view eating meat of a cow as wrong because they view the cow as a god, but you not being Hindu do not follow that religious line of thinking, and with you being a Christian with no restrictions to eat a hamburger might find it ridiculous if a Hindu told you that you were being sinful by eating a hamburger.

 

Do you follow?

 

If one bases their opinions on religious views that defy logic and reality one might find themselves forming opinions based on religious views, and not on logic and reality.

 

Aside from religious views, straight people often perhaps probably can't see themselves acting out sexually with the same sex, so it might seem vulgar and foreign to them making them conclude that it is abnormal simply because they can't see themselves doing it.

 

Yes indeed same sex relations will not lead to procreation, and although straight sex relations can and do, I'm assuming that every straight person engaging in a sexual relation with the opposite sex does not have the goal of procreating.

 

I'm assuming that a very small percentage of straight sexual activity has that as the goal in mind unless a couple is actually specifically aiming to accomplish that, or it happens by accident when they had not intended to accomplish that.

 

If this were the case we would see married couples more frequently having 15-20 children, and we just don't see that, but I'm still guessing that many are still being intimate with one another all the while.

 

I don't find the idea of straight sex vulgar, and I understand it as natural for those who are so inclined, and because it is something that I'm not inclined to do doesn't have me looking at them as wrong for engaging just because I can't see myself doing it.

 

I, with no choice in the matter have all my life been attracted to men (not all men), and just as straight men feel the physical sensation that leads them to desire women, (and I'm assuming not all women), I have only experienced that physical sensation and drive towards men, and never in my life have I ever experienced that same drive towards women. It is just what it is and I'm not seeing any particular reason why I should deny myself of relationship with someone that I'm attracted to because others don't understand this and deem it to be wrong.

 

Do you follow?

 

I, just like you, were indoctrinated by society and religion to believe that homosexuality was wrong, and while I had a lot of faith in the early goings of my life for my elders and their guidance, it sure was confusing to a young lad such as myself to try to sort out in my head why on earth I was this way when it was supposed to be "wrong", and I realized that I hadn't chosen to be, and deep inside didn't feel like a bad immoral person, and to the outside world was as normal as could be doing well in school, seemed certain to myself that I was of sound mind, and had nothing wrong with me physically, and was interested in sports like all the other guys ,and wasn't too bad of an athlete either.

 

To the outside world I was about as normal of a youngster as you can get, but while all the other guys were chasing and obsessing over girls, I had no desire for them that way (I like girls, don't get me wrong), while I had no doubt at all what I was driven towards. I spent many years of my youth wishing an hoping that these feelings would disappear and thought that any day now me liking girls would finally kick in, but it never did. I tried even to date girls to see if I could come around, as well as trying to fool my friends for fear of abandonment if they might possibly figure me out. Dating girls did nothing to make me feel more attracted to them or keep me from being attracted to men.

 

Little by little the only way for me not to go insane was through tons of self-analysis because I had no one to talk to about it for fear of my world crumbling.

 

I found it peculiar that while I was a peaceful non fighting type youth, some of the so called "normal" guys were quick to bully and be hateful to those who they thought were gay, and at times bring physical harm to them, and were celebrated and championed for doing so because they beat up that filthy nasty passive gay guy.

 

Thankfully because I didn't appear to be gay, I was able to escape this type of violence and prejudice, but it scared the hell out of me when 3 neighborhood guys took a gay guy and raped and killed him. That made little sense to me. They hated him for being gay yet they violently had their way with him before killing him.

 

With these type of characters in my neighborhood there was no doubt that I had to remain silent.

 

One of the murderers, and a neighbor and classmate of mine who was also a drug dealer ended up murdered himself by being ball batted in the head and tossed in the Ohio River. That happened around 1980 and the case has never been solved. He himself was never arrested for the rape and murder and I don't recall if any of those 3 guys were.

 

I was not a hateful person yet it seemed to be alright with the general public that "normal" people would give gays hell. Religion didn't promote the violence, but they didn't help matters much by calling it a sin and somehow indirectly giving the green light to some to be awful, hateful, and abusive.

 

Back then also the media when showing gay people on the TV would only show the most outrageous freaks they could find to paint the picture that all gays were outrageous freaks. Sure there are some outrageous freaks within in the ranks of gay people, but there are certainly many outrageous freaks among the ranks of straights too. I wonder how straight folks would like it if Walmart Shopper videos were pushed to try to imply that this is how all straight people are?

 

When stepping back and looking at religion and society, I had a real hard time not concluding that I had terribly been mislead by them my whole youth, and while they pretended to be the ones with all the answers it became quite apparent to me that they didn't know what the hell they were talking about, and me being gay had first hand experience to know and realize that their heads were firmly stuck where the sun doesn't shine.

 

For many straight people of no fault of their own were also mislead about homosexuality and really had no alternative input to help them make a more clearer minded assessment of it, so they just accepted what they were told about it being wrong, and everything they were taught continued to reinforce this misinformation and misunderstanding.

 

I came to this conclusion when I was around 15 or 16, and it felt like a lifetime to reach the age of 20 to finally award myself the freedom to be myself as I nervously began to come out to family and friends, so that I could once and for all start aiming for a happier existence by just finally being myself and quit living a lie for fear of abandonment and ridicule from a world that couldn't or wouldn't understand. It was my life to live and I needed to finally quit living in fear under the thumb of a misunderstanding world that expected me to appease to them and their foundation of ignorance.

 

That same foundation of ignorance is the very root that has made so many closeted teenagers commit suicide for fear of what their future had in store for them in a unaccepting world.

 

As you can see my perception and perspective of homosexuality is more varied and complex and runs much deeper than simply accepting the simpleton evaluation of it from society and religion who came to their conclusions without the benefit of understanding all the facts and circumstances, so if you detect my frustration when I hear flippant uninformed misinformation and utter nonsense that I have redundantly heard for my entire life, you aren't imagining things. I indeed am up to my eyeballs with hearing and seeing the negative byproducts of so much nonsense that you can hardly blame me for still after 31 years of being out of the closet still wanting to scream my head off about just how much ignorance there still is on the topic.

 

Thankfully the ever increasing world of more and more understanding people has helped tremendously in pacifying me from my frustration, and I must admit that as I have aged because I have better control than I once did, I have less concern about the ignorance surrounding the topic, and because with each passing day I have decided that I will not let that ignorance cramp my life.

 

With that said, I must also admit that my stomach still turns and my eyes still roll, and I internally can still get an incensed felling inside when after all of these years I still hear the same ignorance that I've heard my whole life. If still baffles me that after all of these years and all of the open dialogue to help people understand that there are still so many people who are still completely ignorant about it all.

Edited November 6, 201510 yr by B-Ball-fan

It's not that shocking really. Lots of gay couples had sham adoptions so that one partner could gain certain privileges that were forbidden them as a couple. That's what's going on here. The laws as they existed made a mockery of the adoption process. To an extent, that's no longer the case.

 

They should certainly have to undo to adoption somehow before being allowed to proceed.

I actually had never heard of couples doing that. Makes sense though.