This topic came up in the Holmes/Scott thread. This is fro the NFHS:

 

 

 

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

 

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

 

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.

 

1) Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.

 

2) An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

 

3) A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.


All subjective to the Interpretation of the refs. Probably the reason I don't wear stripes. Even though they do make me look thinner.

No one ever addresses the fact that the defense invades the space of the offensive player. If referees would call the defensive foul sooner, it would decrease the likely hood of anyone getting caught with an elbow.

No one ever addresses the fact that the defense invades the space of the offensive player. If referees would call the defensive foul sooner, it would decrease the likely hood of anyone getting caught with an elbow.

 

Couldn't agree more with this statement. :thumb:

No one ever addresses the fact that the defense invades the space of the offensive player. If referees would call the defensive foul sooner, it would decrease the likely hood of anyone getting caught with an elbow.

 

Not going against your statement but what is invading his space? If the D isnt touching the offensive player isnt he allowed to get as close as he wants. Can a ref call a foul for being to close without touching anyone?

No one ever addresses the fact that the defense invades the space of the offensive player. If referees would call the defensive foul sooner, it would decrease the likely hood of anyone getting caught with an elbow.

 

What "space" does the offensive player have?

 

Are you talking about when the defender makes contact?

Not going against your statement but what is invading his space? If the D isnt touching the offensive player isnt he allowed to get as close as he wants. Can a ref call a foul for being to close without touching anyone?

 

Uh, no.

I'm probably reading this wrong.

 

How is a foul committed with a stationary elbow?

I'm probably reading this wrong.

 

How is a foul committed with a stationary elbow?

 

Picture a rebounder chinning the ball and then moving his torso with the arms moving with the torso. In this case, that's stationary. The opposite would be what we see in our mind when we think "swinging the elbow."

Rule of verticality used to apply to everyone. A defensive player establishes his position and it does not disappear if he jumps or raises his hands, I.e., ball is thrown to the post and the defender walls up, the offensive player dives into his arms, it is an offensive foul. By the same rule, an offensive player catches a ball or gets a rebound he has to be given space to land or any contact is suppose to be a defensive foul. Years ago, we were taught that the offensive players space was from his feet up to his shoulders. If an offensive player bends or pivots he should still have the opportunity to straighten up to his original position. In today's game, defensive players are in the offensive players space. It was understood when I played in the 70's that if you got elbowed while in the offensive players space the foul would be called on the defense, therefore, since it did not seem wise to get the foul and the pain, you generally stayed out of his space. I can not remember anyone getting a concussion in my era. Today, space is not granted and fouls are generally called on the offense. I am aware of numerous concussions already in this short season. Hands in someone's space is not the same as having your body (face) so close to the offensive player that he cannot move without hitting you. I would call the foul on the defense for violating the offensive players rule of verticality. Just my opinion of how the rules should be interpreted.

Rule of verticality used to apply to everyone. A defensive player establishes his position and it does not disappear if he jumps or raises his hands, I.e., ball is thrown to the post and the defender walls up, the offensive player dives into his arms, it is an offensive foul. By the same rule, an offensive player catches a ball or gets a rebound he has to be given space to land or any contact is suppose to be a defensive foul. Years ago, we were taught that the offensive players space was from his feet up to his shoulders. If an offensive player bends or pivots he should still have the opportunity to straighten up to his original position. In today's game, defensive players are in the offensive players space. It was understood when I played in the 70's that if you got elbowed while in the offensive players space the foul would be called on the defense, therefore, since it did not seem wise to get the foul and the pain, you generally stayed out of his space. I can not remember anyone getting a concussion in my era. Today, space is not granted and fouls are generally called on the offense. I am aware of numerous concussions already in this short season. Hands in someone's space is not the same as having your body (face) so close to the offensive player that he cannot move without hitting you. I would call the foul on the defense for violating the offensive players rule of verticality. Just my opinion of how the rules should be interpreted.

 

How would you ever measure that or determine an offensive player's "space?" 2 inches? 3 inches? Head only? What about his arms?

 

You see the challenge of the rule the way you would like it.

I would also agree with Clyde's assessment of a stationary elbow versus swinging elbows. Elbows outside the framework of the torso are a flagrant foul, but you have to let the offensive player pivot or he is at a disadvantage.

I would also agree with Clyde's assessment of a stationary elbow versus swinging elbows. Elbows outside the framework of the torso are a flagrant foul, but you have to let the offensive player pivot or he is at a disadvantage.

 

Actually there is no rule that says the offense has to be allowed to pivot.

How would you ever measure that or determine an offensive player's "space?" 2 inches? 3 inches? Head only? What about his arms?

 

You see the challenge of the rule the way you would like it.

 

It was actually quite clear when I played. The offensive player had the space from his feet up. I do realize the game is very different now and I am not asking for the rules to be interpreted as they were in the 70's, however, the game is very rough today, and some of the problem is the defense is given too much of an advantage.

It was actually quite clear when I played. The offensive player had the space from his feet up. I do realize the game is very different now and I am not asking for the rules to be interpreted as they were in the 70's, however, the game is very rough today, and some of the problem is the defense is given too much of an advantage.

 

What do you mean from "feet up?" The space an offensive player "owns" hasn't changed. Maybe the rules are applied differently but the rule itself hasn't changed.