acemona

i think Frances' point is this:

If I read the Bible and I get from it one thing

then

You read the Bible and get from it something different

Who decides which one of us is correct?

If there is not an earthly authority to decipher the truth, then it boils down to the truth as understood by "me" through Christ's revelation.

It is therefore purely situational.

Quote: We need to get rid of the Great Society programs that have made it more profitable for an inner-city mother to produce multiple children out of wedlock, and to then raise children without a father in the house, than it is to support marriage and traditional family values.

Any facts to back any of this up. I think it is an urban myth and used to talk about the evils of welfare, and I believe it is simply not true. 1 extra child brings in abut 68.00 more dollars per month - livin' high on the hog with that.

You pay for the Socio-politcal-economic system where you do business. The more you expect to get out of it, the more you will pay into it.

BTW, while I don't necessarily believe the Bible calls us to create a government to help us become better christians, I do believe it calls on us to end systems that are oppressive. Some people want the government to get rid of abortions, get rid of same sex marriages, get rid of evil people (death penalty), I want the government to get rid of poverty and to end the cycle of poverty that destroys families. It is not okay to simply say pull yourself up by your bootstraps, sometimes the system has to be changed.

To have told an African American (slave) in 1850 that all it took was hard work and they too could be rich was simply not true. To have told an African American in the 1950s that all it took was hard work and they too could be rich was simply not true. Before that could happen, the system had to change.

To tell a third or fourth generation child of poverty that all it takes is hard work and they too can be rich again is simply not true. We have a system that exploits the working poor and sprints to the bottom line and lowest wage to get to more profits. Simple as that.

Just like I can't simply tell EXXON executives and stock holders to be more benevolent, but I can certainly work to change the system in which they operate to try to reduce the exploitation of the poor workers.

:thumb:

 

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. But, if you love someone, then sometimes that means pointing out some sin in their life so they can correct it. I'm not saying we should spend the majority of our time preaching and teaching about hellfire and sin, but it does need to be taught. We aren't doing people any favors if we leave out anything...it all needs to be taught.

2 Questions:

1. Where in the Bible does it instruct us to point out the sins of NON-Christians? I don't think anywhere. It talks about rebuking our brothers and sisters in Christ, but not about rebuking non-believers.

2. Why would a homosexual ever come to know Jesus if he/she is constantly being bombarded with what an abomination they are.

C. Philip Yancey has an awesome book (actually he has several) entitled What's So Amazing About Grace where he talks to a woman who has been a prostitute and is in an awful place in her life, and he asks her if she has thought about going to a church and talking with someone there and she says, Why would I go to a church, I feel bad enough about myself as it is?

True story, says a lot about Christians and the message we put forth.

Not intending to keep stirring the pot Ace, but public transit is principally funded on a local, county and state level. Granted, a big chunk may be underwritten by federal funding, but again, that is up to local grant writers aggressively putting together workable grant requests.

 

Our highways and bridges a largely funded by the taxes we all pay on gasoline and diesel fuel.

 

Eastern Kentucky has benefitted from the addition of major road projects throughout the mountains. We are not as isolated as we were 50 or even 15 years ago.

 

And, unlike those living in socialist or communist countries, we are free to relocate to another area where infrastructure and opportunities are better for us and our families.

 

The Dems had control of Frankfort for 30 years prior to Fletcher. If you're unhappy with transportation infrastructure in your region, they might be a good place to start in your quest for answers.

My post was in response to the post above that said the poor get to take advantage of public transit.

What money should I use to relocate? Where do I get the security deposit and the first months rent and the 150 to turn on the electric and the 100 to turn on the gas.

I would venture to say that the poor benefit more from public transit than "the rich".:confused:

Not a lot of public transit in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky.

When you are poor you do not necessarily reap all of the benefits.

And for the record, I would surmise that there is probably no one on here who makes less than 29K that is arguing for a reduction in their tax burden. The people that do this arguing (me for example) do so out of a moral obligation that I feel I have because of my Christian heritage which says to take care of the poor. And it ask for social justice.

I don't know of any other way to put it than to make it very personal . . . a young lady in my family became pregant at the age of 16. She chose what many would call the moral and responsible thing to do and have the child. B/C there was not family support around, she had to drop out of school to take care of the baby. (The Dad was a sloth and was not around after a couple of years). She has tried and tried to get good paying, long term jobs, but they are simply not around. She gets fired when she has to miss work because the children get sick, then she gets behind on her payments then she writes bad checks b/c she has to have heat and electricity - so she has broken the law and now she has a record which keeps her from getting hired in many good businesses. She can't afford child care so her children often stay by themselves in the evening after school. They make poor grades and get behind in school and the cycle continues. This young lady cannot just decide to have more or to do more. She does the best she can and she is going to always be poor. Chances are, b/c of their educational background now the children will probably be poor too.

Now, fully fund headstart, full day kindergarten, and after school care for people who are trying to make it and you may, MAY break this cycle of poverty. But when you keep giving tax break to the corporations so that they can hire people at or around miminum wage then you have created a system that is socially unjust to the poor and continues the cycle of poverty.

This young lady (in her 30s) does not want to be on welfare, and is embarrassed to use her WIC card. So whenever you talk about people who are lazy and like being on welfare so they don't have to work, I think of this young lady. I will gladly let 1000 people abuse the system if it insures that the children of poor get heat in the winter and food on their table.

It the last man in the original post is truly a christian, he will probably go and buy the other men several more meals b/c that is the way he is and he won't complain about not getting much back in taxes or tax relief.

Excellent post! :thumb:

The discussion is not about whether or not people receive benefits the discussion stems from the post by Hearsay that says the wealthy get no return on their taxes. They get more return on their taxes than the poor.

Somebody tell me how a family of four bringing in 518.00 month in welfare is living more off the government than the people who got bailed out in the S and L scandal? Corporate welfare estimates are in the hundreds of billions while personal welfare to families (AFDC and WIC or Food Stamps) is 1% of state and Federal budgets.

:thumb: I think that's the general term...:lol:

It is amazing to me Larry, Scooter, and 5 that your reading of the scripture and how God's word was revealed to you through Jesus is right and mine is wrong. When I point out things it is Cherry Picking and when you do it is because you are focusing on the whole word. Is it not possible that my AGENDA arises out of my reading of the SCRIPTURE. What possible agenda (which I would assume means it is a benefit to me) would cause me to want to love everybody, other than that is what I read in the Bible. Doesn't Jesus say it is easier to hate. "What good is it if you love those who do good to you, even the sinners do that, but you should love your enemy." As a straight male with a wife and 2 kids and a nice combined salary, what Agenda would I be pushing unless it is one that I have gotten from what the Word says to me.

One of the '"evil" words on another thread is 'wealth redistribution'. Well daggone it, that might be anti-American and anti-capitalism to you but it certainly ain't anti-scripture; a man ask for your coat give him your shirt too, and man asks for you to walk a mile, walk two. Taking the boys food and feeding the 5000 - the rich young ruler (who kept all of the laws) could not enter heaven until he sold all of his possessions and gave the money to the poor.

Again, go back to the teachings of Jesus, get on the computer and do a word search if you must and see whether or not the Son of God talked more about sexual immorality or more about how we treat the poor. JESUS EMPHASISED THE LATTER.

Jesus also saved most of his wrath for SELF-RIGHTEOUS religious right of his day than anything else.

If you take the whole body of Jesus Teaching then the only conclusion that you can come to is that your safest bet is love everyone unconditionally and when they ask for help give it to them, reagrdless of whether or not they are gay or straight or had an abortion.

How many of the hungry and poor in India do you think Mother Theresa lectured on their behavior. Or do you think she just loved and served them and let them see Jesus through her.

"GE and its stockholders don't benefit more from the taxes paid to the government." And I like bologna.

 

Have nots will always howl at the moon against the haves, so these types of rationalizations never really bother me. I had nothing and built a law practice from scratch. So can someone (and in fact, I know someone who did) from Casey County. However, I can guarantee you that if Uncle Sam took less of my self-employment dollars, I would feel more charitable about giving even more of those same dollars to the United Way, Salvation Army, the poorbox at church, etc. I guarantee you that I will be better at redistributing my wealth, and my fellow man will benefit more, when it is left to me to be done of my own volition, then the government is forcibly taking it from me..

How about Horse Hockey!!!

Again, GE benefits from favorable trade policies and tariffs. They benefit from Municipal Airports and Safe Interstates much more than the poor. They even benefit more from Social Security.

Even over a lifetime how much money do you think someone on welfare gets from the government? Is it possible that it is even less than one year's worth of corporate welfare to one company.

I didn't say someone from Casey county couldn't pull themselves up by their bootstraps, even though there are some that can't. What I said is that there are some kids living there who will never get on an interstate or use an airport.

I do not believe for an instance that you had "nothing." At the very least I will bet that you had at least one strong guardian who pushed you and taught you the benefit of good education. There are many who never get that and they have no chance of pulling themselves up. Spend a year getting to know a high school of impovershed kids in rural Kentucky and come back and tell me what awesome opportunities they have.

BTW how many years did it take you to get through college? If you paid all of that out of YOUR pocket and got no assistance from anywhere, I would assume that it was at least 6 or 7 years given the cost of an education today and on top of that law school.

I know in my two years of graduate school it cost me $23,000.00 (Thank God for GOVERNMENT supported student loan programs.)

Just wanted to point out that in the "Left Behind" series. All religions were banned because they were perceived as the cause of hatred and wars. All religion save for a new all-inclusive one that spoke nothing of sin but acceptance for all regardless of what they were doing in their lives.

Dispensationialism at its deepest. You know you really have to do some hard core interpretation to come up with the end times scenario that Tim LeHay exhorts.

Funny how much we take for granted. There is a very large population of folks, mosstly inner city, that do not own cars, live and work within the same city and could care less if there were interstates or airports.

Thanks DD, and not only inner city.

How far away from a commercial airport or an interstate is Hazard, or Manchester or Pikeville, or Middlesboro. I know Middlesboro is an hour from I75 in Corbin and an hour to I64 in Knoxville. Knoxville also has the closest municipal airport which is about an hour and half drive.

What about Casey County. How far away are they from an interstate?

Does anyone realize that there are still homes in Eastern Kentucky and elsewhere I am sure that do not have running water (municipalities can't run pipes up the hollers) and have straight pipes for sewage? Tell me that GE and its stockholders don't benefit more from the taxes paid to the government!! Baloney.

Does the poor not use the highways, education system, airports, police, fire, defense system, social security (who I would argue that the poor get the most benefit).

 

These other...as you call "benefits" are not benefits. They are rights that are given to EVERYONE. Just because someone never gets to use them doesnt mean they are only afforded to the RICH. You say it as if the poor dont have the opportunity.

Many of the boys I coached in basketball had never been on and interstate and some will never likely be on an interstate, much less a plane. I would say they get very little benefit except necessary usage - while the wealthy use that government spending to make money and they use it alot.

It is not a matter of saying the poor don't get benefits, but to suggest that the wealthy do not get a good return on their investment in the infrastructure of this country is just plain silly. It is the infrastructure and the tax system that has allowed them to make money. Their/Your whomevers only complaint is that they want to make MORE or they want to KEEP MORE - Why? Don't they have enough?

We get to heaven by knowing Jesus and having a relationship with Him.

 

We cannot earn it. We can do nothing in our own power to merit salvation.

For the record, I don't know what I think about a lot of the questions I ask, but I think they are good questions.

Also, FTR, I think that I am going to heaven b/c I have a relationship with JC, I don't know how YOU (collective) are getting there.

I wish I could better paraphrase the story of the missionary who went to an Asian country and talked with someone there about JC. This was a person who had never heard the gospel. At the end of the conversation the missionary asked if the Asian would like to come to know JC. The Asian said, I have known Jesus all of my life, you have just now given him a name.

What does God do with all of those native people in the jungles and mountain ranges of developing countries who have never heard the word? Are they all condemned to this nasty lake of fire?

No reply from anyone on the goat and sheep and salvation question???

How did Jesus say you got to heaven in that story?

Unless Elton John has become perfect, I know he sins against God, just as I do.

 

 

Yes he did. He told her to leave the sinful life she was living.

 

 

And this gets to my exact point. Somehow, somewhere, probably because of silly pride that how dare someone tell me how to live my life and say I am wrong mindset of this country, we can't do both????? Why can't I have dinner with them, tell them I love them but I don't condone their sinful life? Why can't I tell the drug user that I love them and let me take you out to eat but I don't condone or agree with you doing drugs?

 

Or do I have to tell the drug user, I love you. You keep right out on doing whatever you have been doing and I will still love you. Want me to hand that needle to you in love?

Once you have dinner with them, then you can have that discussion - but a broad sweep that says all homosexuals are goint to hell is just plain not what Jesus taught. And then it is let me help you get over that nasty addiction you have not because if you don't you're going to hell, but because I love you and you are destroying your life and those around you.

Is it possible that JC didn't condemn the woman at the well b/c he did not want to send her to hell, but he knew the life she was living would destroy her?

He may have told her the same thing, but for the record:

 

John 8:1-11

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Wonder what he meant by "neither do I condemn thee."? :confused:

Although Jesus forgave her, he also told her to "...go, and sin no more."

I could be wrong, but I believe that was the woman at the well.

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION FOR LBC and whomever else.

Read again the story of the goat and the sheep and tell me the way to get to heaven based on that story. What does it say about salvation?

As far as not preaching sin to our brothers, here is Jesus' NOT SERMON but INSTRUCTIONS.

Matthew 18

A Brother Who Sins Against You

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.

This is a brother who sins against YOU not Elton John whom you believes sins against God.

Some scripture you also quoted earlier was a rebuke of Christian Brothers (and sisters), not sinners. Jesus did get angry at the money changers for defiling God's house, but he saved his most vile angry, not for those that the community called sinners, but for the self-righteous, religious conservatives of his day. Thsoe who told everyone else how to live.

BTW did Jesus lecture the adulterous woman who was about to be stoned on her sinful ways, or did he lecture those who were about to do the stoning?

Did he lecture Zacheus about taking money from the Jewish people, or did he go to have dinner with him?

Good answer.:thumb:

 

Let's try a new one with Jesus talking about sin.

 

Matthew 18:7-9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

Sure seems like he is preaching about a sin and the dangers of it. In fact, not sure you can get much graphic than this. Should we not preach the message as Jesus preached it? Full and complete?

Good Question???

What about this one?

Matthew 18: 12-14

What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wondered off? ?And if he finds it, I tell you the truth he is happier about than one sheep than about the nninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way you father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Appears to me that God will not stop until ALL have been found.

I agree that there are rules in the OT that we no longer have to abide by. Jesus fulfilled the law and freed us from so much of it. Not do away with it but fulfilled the requirements of the law. There is a difference.

 

And the Scripture I pointed out to you is JESUS' WORDS. And I am still curious on how you view Jesus saying he came NOT bringing peace but a sword and families will be pitted against each other.

 

I agree 100% with you that we need to preach a message of love, hope and understanding, but I feel that is balanced with the consequences of not being a follower of Jesus Christ. I feel if our message is too IMBALANCED either way, it is the wrong message.

 

Question for you Ace (and again let me say I love the debate. It has been civil and good and I appreciate that.): If it is not important about sin and where we go for eternity, why did Jesus himself feel the need to teach on it? Surely, if Jesus felt it was important (separating sheep and goat sermon), it should be an important message for me to teach to.

Very simple, in the story of the sheep and the goats he separated the groups based on how they treated the "least of these" not on whether or not they sinned. But on whether or not they lived with mercy, compassion and forgiveness.

My point to a tee.:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

BTW I simply have to call a huge Baloney on this not picking and choosing scripture. We do not even attempt to live by the Levitical Laws and we don't preach anywhere that we should.

We wear clothes made of more than one thread,

we don't sell our daughters into slavery.

We don't only eat land living animals that have BOTH a splite hoof AND chew their cud.

We eat more than only the "water" animals that have fins and scales.

We don't have 33 days of purification for women after child birth.

Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight (I get paid every two weeks)

Do not charge interest

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed

Do not cut the hair at the sides of you head or clip off the edges of your beard

HOW ABOUT THIS ONE? When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God

No, no, no we never pick and choose we always spread the entire scripture.

Ace...All Scripture is God Breathed. Genesis 19: Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed. Why Ace?

 

Leviticus 18: All of it.

 

Matthew 15:19: JESUS said For out of the Heart comes evil thoughts, murder,Adultery, Sexual Immorality,. These what makes Man unclean.

 

Acts 15:20 Instead we should write to them telling them to Abstain from Sexual Immorality.

 

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in there sinful desires of their hearts to Sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

 

1st Corinthians 5:1 It is reported there is Sexual Immoraity among you.

 

1st Corinthians 6:13:18 The body is not meant for sexual Immorality and must flee.

 

1st Corinthians 7:2 Each man shall have his own wife, and each women have her own husband.

 

1st Corinthians 10:8 We should not commit Sexual Immorality, as some of them did-and in one day 23K of them DIED.

 

Galatians 5:19 Acts of the Sinful Nature Sexual Immorality those willnot inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Ephesians 5:3 But among you must not be a hint of Sexual Immorality.

 

Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore whatever belongs to your earthy manner Sexual Immorality.

 

Hebrews 12:16 See to it that no one is Sexual Immoral.

 

Revelations 21:8 He said to me...It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega. To him that is thirsty I will give to drink with out cost from of the spring of water of life (Jesus mentions this to the Smaratian women at the well) He who overcomes will inherit all of this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. BUT the Cowardly the unbelieving,the Vile,the murderers, the Sexual Immoral, their place will be in the eternal fire.

 

Ace we cannot Pick and Choose scriptures. These are not my words but my teaching.

However, not a word from Jesus on homosexuality, b/c Jesus wasn't about pointing out sin. BTW, none of those scriptures talk about homosexuality either. It talks about sexual immorality and you make the jump.

Homosexuality was not even a word that Paul used, the Greek word translated most often means adult men with their male students, no reference in the new testament to adult, monogamous same gender sex.

What does God Breathed anyway and where does it say that? Curiosity?

Why did they have to have a diet to decide which letters to use a scripture. Paul did not realize his letters would be used by us, they were for the particular church he was addressing.

This is so untrue. The man earning the most actually gets the least back from his taxes. Its unlikely that he is receiving money from any government program, unlike the poor man. Also, for every dollar he earns, he only see 65-70 cents of it, whereas the middle earner sees 85-90 of his income. He is also inelgible for most tax breaks and credits that the middle and poor get.

 

His opportunities to earn a large income and have investment income come from his efforts. Those opportunities are a reward for success.

When you say he gets no benefits you mean that he doesn't use the highway, or didn't use the education system (or at least rely on it for educated workers), or doesn't use airports, or the police or fire protection or the American defense system to keep him safe from terrorists, or he won't receive Soc. Sec., or his corporation didn't receive any incentives, or their were no tariffs placed on imports so he could keep his prices high, or good gosh I don't have time to list all the benefits that he uses that the poor do not. He gets way more benefit than the poor.

Ace...Every I mean Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord. Jesus is our judge and will a Gay person be judged just like me I'm sure he will. I'll never say if a person will not go to heaven or not, thats not our call, but I'll gladly show you scripture that deals with a Gay person. Hates the Sin...Loves the Sinner.

Show me something that Jesus said about it.

I already showed you scripture about mercy and peacemaking yet we don't condemn those who fight wars and don't show mercy. There are over 2000 verses that deal with poverty yet we don't condemn those who accumulate "ungodly" amounts of wealth.

Why is that?

If every knee will bow and every tongue confess, does that mean that everyone will go on to heaven?