acemona

This want go over well but I feel that mankind would be better served to have a world view and less of a country view.

 

I believe God wants us to be concerned about all people on this planet we called Earth and less concerned about the country called USA.

AMEN :ylsuper:

You are probably disappointed that I will be one of the few it goes overwith well.

Ace, check out Luke 21. Its long but Jesus talks about how things will go. His disciples were having some problems.

 

I'm not going to give you a bunch of verses to research, you are a smart fellow and you are entitled to your belief system.

 

I will say you and I cannot question why God does or did what he did, there is a format, a pattern...Romans chapter 10. Jesus lived 33 years on earth. I lived a few more, he died and I will too. Its a great feeling to know that I will be with him. Its my job to share his story so I can take as many folks with me as posible.

 

You have "Freewill" to share your thoughts. Are you trying to change our thoughts to be like yours? What is your goal? Just curious.

My goal is to generate discussion so that I can mull new ideas around in my brain. I am a much different Christian now than I was even 10 years ago - I am an "emerging" Christian and I don't want to be stagnant in my thought. I want to see more clearly each day (although according to Paul I will always "see dimly"). I have no desire to change anyone's mind but I think it is always positive to talk about what you see/hear/and believe about the Gospel.

I too think it is my job to share Christ's story and to talk about my relationship with him - my tactic may just be a little different. I want people to come to know Christ and love him and respond to him out of this loving relationship not because they are afraid of going to hell. Just like I would never want my adult/enlightened child to respond to me out of fear, but to respond to me out of love. The same is true for my spouse. I want her to do and not do things out of love for me not out of fear of me. I think that is what Christ wants - and American/Western religion of the past 27-30 years has been one of fear and condemnation not a story of love and Grace.

The conservative takeover of the SBC and the unholy marriage of Ralph Reed/Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell to the government has skewed the message of Jesus who talks about Blessed are the poor, merciful, the peacemaker, the mournful, the MEEK, the pure in heart, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. The Jesus of Matthew 5:38 ff is not the Jesus put forth by those Christians that the world see everyday. I am much more in line with Jim Wallis at http://www.sojo.net.

BTW someone earlier accused me of discounting 2000 years of orthodoxy, not so. My father in law, as I have said before was a professor at Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville before Al Mohler. He was a professor of preaching and has writting several books on the preaching styles of several of the new testament authors, and of Jesus. He preaches of Jesus of love and mercy and forgiveness that he learned about at SBS. The fact is, the Jesus I talk about (of course not exactly all of it) is the Jesus that was taught at SBS throughout its history, until the conservative takeover in the late 70s and early 80s. It was even taught there up into the 90s when all of the old professors were run out of town. That teaching just never made its way to the Sunday School teachers and then to the rest of the Lay People.

I think it is a huge stretch to believe this in any of the Scriptures that you have brought forth. Especially when there are Scriptures that specifically contradict this line of thinking.

I don't think anything specifically contradicts and in 1 Peter, I go back again that he goes to hell and preaches to those who had died earlier.

The scripture also says the everyone will be saved "each in his own turn".

John 3:17, I come not to condemn the WORLD, but that the WORLD through me might be saved.

All kinds of scripture talk about it.

I am not sure what your point is, here.

 

I think it is dangerous, as some profess to believe, that there is no Satan nor no Hell. God is all-inclusive and everyone is going to make it in.

 

That gives people an excuse in their mind to just go about their lives never paying in mind to God or Christ.

If when I die, and I have not made some effort to seek out God and have only lived a humanistic life I believe that Iwill be separated from God and all that God is (love, peace, joy) that means that my existence will be one of hate, turmoil, sorrow - that can be awful, probably more so than hell itself (at least as we think we know it to be described).

My son loves communion (not church stuff, but being around people) when he misbehaves I have two choices, I can spank him, or I can send him to his room (no electronic devices there or anything) - he would prefer the spanking b/c he HATES the separation. Not only that, when he returns from his room we talk about why the separation took place and discuss that it was meant as a redemptive move to restore his right relationship with me and his mother (a most probably his little sister) - but he is not sent there Forever.

I believe, that if you REJECT Jesus, the son of God, in this life, that there will be separation from God in the next, however, I simply don't believe - Given the nature of God that has been revealed to me in the New Testament through the life of Jesus - that God will simply cast them away and forget about it, I think God will continue to work for redemption, even in the next life. B/c it is God's will that all will be saved, "in their own turn".

First, didn't take it as snooty at all.

 

Second, I think there is a spiritual battle going on everyday, every minute waging around each of us.

 

I think that the Devil is a real being. I think the Satan loves to drag men down and stand as an obstacle between us and God. I think Satan was defeated the weekend that Christ was crucified and arose but the final battle has not been fought while the outcome is already determined. I believe that Satan and Hell will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

 

I think the Devil is a spiritual being as well as could be a physical presence. Same as the angels that appeared to Mary are both.

 

The Bible tells me that the Devil was an angel that sought to be more than an angel and was cast out of Heaven for that. Do you believe angels can be physical beings?

 

I have seen no reason to doubt that.

I see no reason to think that any of that is not true, but I don't think I HAVE to believe it in that way for my salvation/relation with God to be valid.

^How can you defend illegal immigration?

It is not that I defend the breaking of law, but I do not see this as a blight on society as many do.

At this point in our history, there are many more positives that come from people crossing the border than there are negatives. Instead of trying to figure out how to take 12 million (some say really over 20 million) people out of the economy and destroying families, why are we not trying to find out how we can fix it without hurting the overall economy. We actually need to let more in to replace the retiring baby boomers.

My buddy uses that threat of terrorism, but I am very curious to know how many illegal immigrants have committed an act of terrorism against the United States? It is my understanding that they come to American for a better opportunity - not because they hate our way of life.

LBBC is everything you read in the Bible literal. Is it not possible that story is not metaphorical? Does there have to be a person standing there beside Jesus for this to be true. I am tempted all the time, but i don't think "the devil" is walking up beside me - sometime it is my HUMAN nature, or the evil that is around me.

LBBC, after re-reading this today, my tone was not intended to be as it sounds here. It sounds snooty and I did not/do not mean for it to. Forgive me.

God's law demands a sin sacrifice. Jesus chose to be that sacrifice for all of us. But its still up to us to accept his sacrifice.

Why does God's law demand a sin sacrifice? Did God not create his law? God can do anything God wants, how can HE be held beholden to a law?

Not sure what you mean by personified?

 

When the Bible talks about Satan tempting Jesus, who is this?

LBBC is everything you read in the Bible literal. Is it not possible that story is not metaphorical? Does there have to be a person standing there beside Jesus for this to be true. I am tempted all the time, but i don't think "the devil" is walking up beside me - sometime it is my HUMAN nature, or the evil that is around me.

I don't see anything there about the aliens illegally entering your land. God commands us to obey the laws of man unless they are in opposition to the laws of God.

 

"Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."

 

1 Peter 2:13

 

Check this link for more on the subject...

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/obeylaw.html

 

When someone crosses into our land against our laws, he or she is in violation of the law of the United States and, therefore, disobeying God. When a person is in our country legally and, therefore, following the law of the land, I will welcome he or she with open arms.

I would say then that our law flies in the face of this quote from Leviticus. Amazing how this conservative Christian board can just ignore the TRUTH. It is right there in black and white.

BTW way do we have restrictions on the numbers of people crossing our southern border. Without immigration (both legal and illegal) our population is in decline. We are not replacing the baby boomers in the workforce, and our economy is going to be strained (not to mention the # of people we don't have paying into the SSI). We have low unemployment in this country now (watch neil cavuto on FOX) so the hispanics are not taking jobs away from Americans, they are actually filling in where we don't have the numbers.

So we should just open our borders and let everyone in?

 

Do we as a nation not have a right to enforce our borders?

 

I have zero problems with extending every courtesy to people who have entered our country legally. Bit I think it is a complete slap in the face to those that have taken steps to become legal immigrants to advocate any kind of amnesty program for people who have entered the United States illegally.

I am not putting forth a policy, just stating what Leviticus reports that GOD said.

My definition of Satan is that he is an angel that rebelled against God. Thus, he is a created being, created by God.

 

I'm assuming yours is different.

I KNOW that evil exists, I just don't know that it is personified.

Is this not fun? :dancingpa

God created Satan as well...does that go against His love if He indeed condemns him to eternal torment? Or will Satan, like everyone else, eventually get in to heaven? Just curious.

that depends on your definition of Satan. I certainly believe that evil will be destroyed.

I don't believe Jesus had to die either. God COULD have chosen any plan to give us a chance at salvation. He chose this plan and Jesus agreed to come and die.

 

So in God's plan, he had to ALLOW His Son to go through the torture that he did. Does that coincide with the peaceful, easy feeling God that you talk about? I think God is perfectly BOTH. When wrath (didn't he create wrath since God is the creation of all things?) is needed and warranted, he is wrathful. When peace and grace are needed, God is those things. God is the perfect balance of all things, to me.

Isn't Grace ALWAYS needed and doesn't God say "I AM LOVE"?

"When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

Leviticus 19:33-34

On the agreement, only if you are reading my posts the way I am reading yours.

 

I cannot tell you reasons why God chose the plan as He has. Only what I read in Scripture and what he has unveiled about that plan.

 

Some make no sense to me but they are what God has set up.

 

I can't personally imagine sending my son to His death for the sins of others. But that is what God did. Doesn't sending Jesus to the life and torture he had on this planet also seem to be as you described in the first paragraph? But isn't that what happened?

 

God could have easily said, no Jesus you don't have to be crucified, I can do this another way. But he didn't and instead allowed his Son to have a horrible, horrible death. Does that match with the God you are talking about?

You will really enjoy this . . .

I don't believe the Jesus HAD to die. I think it was part of his living life and showing us the example of how it ought to be. He could have called down angels, but chose to live the non-violent life that resulted in his death. I don't think God demanded his blood.

Another story, create all these creatures and they do as you say. And then God says I am going to send my Son to be beaten, humilated and crucified all for nothing since I am going to accept them without them ever showing any appreciation for what my Son did.

 

Great father and story????

So you agree with the story as I layed it out? WOW. . . so essentially I come to accept Jesus only b/c I am afraid of a wrathful, vengeful God - heckbent on pain and torture. We might as well be worshipping Zeus, not a God that preaches about Love and a radical way of of overcoming the evil of the earth.

I have not ever (never) advocated the story you put forth, and will never advocate it. You have misread or misunderstood me all the way through here if the story you put forth is what you believe I have put forth. Please re-read my posts carefully and tell me how you reach the conclusion where I say that God would accept everyone without them EVENTUALLY showing appreciation.

Ace...I love my son and I forgive him.

Do you then have more love than God who, according to everyone on this thread, will throw his creations away to be TORTURED FOREVER. Why would God do this. God is all powerful and can do whatever God wants - this sounds like a monster - does it not?

See if I have it correct here . . .

"I am lonely . . . I think I will create some companions. I don't want them to be robots so I will give them free will so they can grow and learn and we can enjoy one another. I will put some parameters on their freedom - for their own good - and if they step outside of those parameters I will punish them forever"

LATER (the amount of time is debatable) :jump:

"Wow a lot of these people can't seem to stay within their boundaries. I will send them an example of how to be like me, and so that I won't have to punish them I will KILL MY SON so that these other creations can stay with me, as long as they know a recieve my Son"

LATER (see above)

"Wow there are a lot of people who don't know or have rejected my SON, I guess all of that was in vain - oh well, I will torture them forever."

Great Story :confused:

John 14:6. Sin is all around us. God hates Sin. Man has messed up big time. A sinful heart has to repent. There is a pattern that is setforth. There are two ways to choose. Only two. Man has a choice and can learn from scripture the right choice. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. Man has a choice. If my child acts wrong there is a pattern, he can choose. He makes choices and when he is wrong he pays. He knows the rules. If my child hasn't heard the rule and messes up I judge fairly. God knows your true heart...1st Samual 16:7

Does your son pay FOREVER? A mistake in 80 years vs eternity?

If no physical bodies, why all the banquets, wedding feasts and even one Scripture that says we will be served meals by God?

 

We might also still have racial differences.

Revelation 7:9 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

 

For some reason the writer could distinguish that every nation, tribe and people were there. He did indicate that he looked and saw this. Wouldn't that mean that at the very least there is a possibility that there will be a visual difference between us? If we still have racial differences, it is an easy jump to think that our bodies will look similar to what we have presently but still different and better.

Are you assuming a literal interpretation of the figurative/symbolic language of a man using code so that the Roman authorities couldn't understand his message and therefore wouldn't censor his letters to the people in Turkey?

We are of the Roman tradition, why would we be able to understand by just a cursory reading?

It is apocalyptic literature in the tradition of that of the old testatment. It flies in the face of the Jesus that is presented to us in the Gospel, who shuns the pageantry of the Great White Horse of the Romans (Pilate probably arrived a few days or weeks before Jesus and came in as a conquering hero) for the donkey of a servant. A savior who brings victory through peace and love and tells Peter to put away his sword b/c that is not the type of messiah he was. Why would he then change character completely when we get to Revelation? Is it not possible that Revelation is metaphorical and speaks of the victory over evil in the only terms that the peope reading it could understand - apocalyptic literature was meant to bring hope to the oppressed - how else was John to do it without using this language.

Also is it not possible that all of the fire in Revelation is a purifying fire that cleanses the people of their evil so that they too could be redeemed?

Tell me, those of you who are parents, at what point would you CONDEMN your child FOREVER, ETERNITY to a lake of fire? If you would NEVER be willing to do that, and would ALWAYS hold out hope of them turning around, why do you assume GOD to be less loving and less hopeful and less full of grace than you?

Why would GOD, who can do anything GOD wants to do, want to send someone to be eternally [darn]ed? God does not HAVE to do that - b/c GOD is GOD

If you don't believe in hell, how did Jesus go preach there?

I don't believe in a physical hell. There doesn't need to be one, if we don't have physical bodies.

Ace...with all due respect I believe you are "pickin and Choosing scripture" again. When Jesus spoke of the Rich man in torment it wasn't a parable. He was telling us that you have to do something and with your actions keeps you out of torment because once you are there its over.

Then why would Jesus go to hell and preach?

If I am picking and choosing, are you ignoring? I have put a lot of different scripture references on this thread, if I am picking and choosing, I am picking and choosing a lot of them.

That depends on how you choose to interpret it, I suppose. Undoubtedly, it has a lot of symbolism in it, but there are various views on exactly what it all means. I'm assuming ours differ.

 

What would be the point in unbelievers being resurrected for judgement and cast into a lake of fire if it wasn't a real physical place?

It is certainly possible that John was looking for the worst possible place to describe what it would be like without the presence of God. He chose Gehenna. It may also be that John was describing a place where fire 'purified' the soul after death.

Anybody attempting to bring "real meaning" to the words of Revelation can do nothing but make an educated Guess. You cannot KNOW what it all means.

I figured it would be easier to address my views on this subject in a separate post.

 

The Bible seems to make it pretty clear that there is a real place called hell and there is a real place of eternal punishment for unbelievers.

 

On several occasions, Jesus referenced an outer darkness and furnace of fire that some would be sent to where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Mark 9:43, 44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

 

The Book of Revelation has some pretty strong verses about an eternal place of torment as well.

 

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Revelation 20:4-6, 10-15 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years...The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Also, the Book of Daniel speaks of this...

 

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Those are a few of the verses that I base my view on. There are other verses, but I didn't see the need to make this too long. I'd love to believe that there isn't a place of eternal torment, but I just don't see any way to reach that conclusion from scripture.

I think eternal separation from the love of God is eternal torment. I just don't believe in a physical hell. Biblical authors had the use words that we could understand. We can't completely understand the physical, how could we possible understand the ephemeral or spiritual.

Revelations is primarily all metaphor and symbolism . . .