acemona

An increase in spending for education is not going to make people less prone to crime. They will still drop out of school, refuse to go, or just "get by" until they are done. Crime is more closely related to economic conditions. We also have to thank the "War on Drugs" for the increase in prison population as well. While I'm not a drug advocate, there are better ways to treat drug addiction/abuse than prison, where drugs are just as easily accessible.

And economic conditions are strongly related to the level of education. I am not worried about fancier schools or more technology. You simply need more teachers and to get more teachers you have to pay more. The #1 predictor of student success is teacher:student ratio.

Two things to address:

1)Yes, they are uneducated. I was at a Professional development that indicated that the rate of growth in prisons is in direct relation to the number of citizens who cannot read. No doubt that education is a good indication of a life of crime.

 

2)Education begins and is anchored at home NOT IN SCHOOLS. The old saying, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" comes into play. If education is not valued in the home, it will most likely not be valued by the child no matter what the school does. You send homework home and the parents tell the child they don't have to do it.

 

In addition, so much of the basics in reading, writing (knowing your alphabet and being able to write your name) occurs at home before they ever get to school.

 

To combat that problem (the lack of emphasis on learning), schools are NOW accepting students that are labeled at-risk (the students that you are talking about) at the age of 3.

Can we change the conditions of the homes? I think not, so we have to take care of them at school, or we are destinying them for a rough life.

Disagree as we have more and more educated people participating in major embezzlement or fraud.

 

Their priorities are grown up involving money, stature and prestige rather than the things that are truly important in life. And putting that into a child is not the purpose of schools.

 

It is the importance of family, a complete and whole family with both parents, one father and one mother, working together to instill the proper values and faith.

I think it would be important to check the statistics of those incarcerated. I am sure you will find that the majority are poor and uneducated.

We no longer have jobs for those who drop out, and we don't have enough teachers to teach all those who stay.

The number one deterrent to crime is education. And we will never start to reduce the money we spend on jails until we increase the money spent on education.

Julian Carroll (FWIW), while running for State Senate had some startling numbers on the differences in spending on 1 inmate vs. 1 student. UNBELIEVABLE.

Let me preface my statements with this......

This is what I hope happens but I would not put much faith in what LBBC hopes but faith in what Scripture says.

 

I hope that people who have not heard of Jesus Christ have the opportunity to find their way to Heaven. I hope that this happens so that the losing of their souls is not the result of the failure of myself, believers like me and the church in not doing their job.

AMEN:thumb:

I am not stating anything just showing Scriptures.

 

And there are very few adult-aged people that have not heard about Jesus Christ.

 

Let me also say, I am not sure this is 100% clear here so I think it would be very dangerous to just assume that and feel that I should never tell anyone about Jesus Christ and let them play on the uninformed safe side. I think that would be a dangerous mindset to take.

I agree, We also have a mandate to spread the gospel. My belief is that you want everyone to live in the fullness of life and you go only do that in a relationship with God through Jesus.

I was just curious if others thought there was a possibility that someone could find God having never heard of the the incarnate Jesus Christ?

Romans 2:14-16 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

 

 

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

I have been told that these Scripture speaks to those who have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But once you hear the Gospel, you have two choices, a)choose Jesus or b)reject Jesus. The above Scripture no longer applies to.

Does this mean that Muslims who have never heard the scripture have to opportunity to go to heaven?

You know what you are stating is pretty radical.

When Jesus comes back the second time he comes back as a warrior ready to deal justice. First time he came to deal salvation. Second time, you doesn't want to be messing with Jesus.

But the verse cited above my post says that Jesus says "I am with you, even unto the end of the age".

Alright let me give you a Scripture that will muddle everything up......

 

1 Peter 3 18-20

 

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

ooh, good one - I don't know what to do with that.

Col 1:19 ff

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds becasue of your evil behavior. Be now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation if you continue in your faith, established and frim, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and THAT HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED TO EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Now we now not everyone has heard the new testament preached, so how is the gospel proclaimed to them?

John 14:6 is pretty clear how we get to the Father.

 

A person has to be a believer of Christ, and once they are they will obey him and his teachings.

 

Jesus Christ will judge every man and Women.

 

Man looks at the outward apperance, God looks at the heart.

 

We cannot question God, we are just his creation, he is the Potter, we are the clay.

 

"All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age".

Kind of an off topic question, and someone may want to move it but . . . Why does Jesus need to come back if he is with us already?

I think the question is really -

Can Christ make himself known to people of different backgrounds who have not had the benefit of hearing the scripture?

If not - then why allow someone to even be born if they are going to hell b/c they never hear the word?

Are all of the people from the outback they never had missionaries visit and the people from the inner parts of Africa that passed before missionaries visited doomed to hell?

Sounds like an awfully harsh God, does it not.

What is the general take on this?

As a Christian I believe that God's complete revelation of God's self has come by way of Jesus Christ, that in some unique way, beyond explanation, God has manifested God's self in the person of Jesus, who is the Christ, the Lord. Do I believe that for people who never have the opportunity to know Christ, or because of birth and circumstances beyond their control, and are immersed in other religious traditions--can they know God in a transformational way? Yes I do. I believe that Jesus is the way that leads to truth and life, and through him we have a special relationship to God, but I also believe he is the cosmic Christ, who can be present to people who address him and know him by a different name.

This is quoted from a friend of mine - just getting your thoughts. I have a hard time disagreeing.

lib:scared:

Good homemade potato salad

desert:ylsuper:

2 points that I think bear (or is it bare) mentioning.

1. I think God might be offended that we are swearing an oath on the Bible

a. "Do not swear oaths, but let your 'yes' be yes and your 'no' be no.

b. It could appear that swearing upon the Bible could be seen as

worshipping an idol - the Bible as opposed to God. Aside - I think

we do that a lot with wanting the 10 Commandments posted in the

schools.

2. God gave us two great gifts

a. His Son

b. Free Choice - Probably the one we forget all of the time

C. It was religion and protestantism (reformation) that gave us the great democratic movements of the 15 and 16 hundreds. This belief, however, arose from historical protestant beliefs of:

1. Priesthood of the Believer

2. Autonomy of the soul

It is these 2 things that make democracy great - I am free to choose God or not (a gift given to me by God's self) and I am free to make decisions about all other beliefs including my governmental leaders

The fact that a Muslim could choose to take his or her oath of office using the Quran makes me proud to be an American. A Bible could not be used in a Muslim country and that is what separates us.

I had to double check to see if this was written by Acemona.

 

 

Frances

i resemble that remark

You are right on target and the church should be the force behind driving the government to address poverty while they are addressing the effects of poverty. My view is that Jesus said that even hell cannot overcome His church and my confidence is in the church and what it CAN do when it is of the right mindset. He did not say that about government and I don't have as much faith in it.

 

I would also include other "conservative issues" to your povery and health care issues. I am sure we all can guess the first one I would include.

I think we have reached some common ground - pretty cool.

I agree with what you have said here and think the church, calling out all denominations here, have washed their hands too much in helping people. At times, it seems churches are more worried about numbers in a door rather than having those numbers be the type of Christians we are called to be.

 

My caution is the desire to replace the church with the government. Yes, the government should do things. My point is that Christ did not call the government to do those things but called the church to do. People should look for the church first to take care of things and not the government.

 

People should see the church as the organization to solve issues and concerns and problems in their lives. A place to go to for help, guidance and comfort.

I understand your fear of replacing the church with the government, but the church cannot raise the minimum wage, nor can it provide universal health care for children. And while it can do a great deal to offset the effects of poverty it can do very little to effect the causes of that poverty.

I can agree with much of what you said. And to clarify, he said forgive them as we expect to be forgiven.

 

And yes, we should love everyone as Jesus loved them. And part of that love that Jesus showed them was calling them on their behavior when their behavior was wrong. Jesus calling Peter, "Satan" would be a good example.

 

I would agree that you need a relationship to BEST effect someone that is doing something they should not. I think that is modeled all the time in the NT with how mentoring and close relationships helped strengthen each other. I think of Paul calling Peter out when Peter was allowing himself to be influenced by outside agents.

 

What I don't think that means is that I have to vote for issues or people that stand against my faith, just to let them feel that I don't approve of their lifestyle. For example, I should not be railing against sexual immorality. But if a candidate wants to zone an area in my community that would allow strip clubs, I think I have every right as a Christian to try and speak against it.

I agree whole heartedly. And just so that I am not completely hypocritical, I do think that I am called to speak out against the "sin" of injustice.

If you recall - or you may not - I first started this post right after the post about Elton John and his rant on organized religion. While I know there is specific scripture dealing with homosexuality (although I think there was a cultural issue here) - there are more scriptures dealing with how we treat the poor and less fortunate. I am just disappointed that more preachers don't preach about injustice than preach about the fires of hell.

When I go to church on Sunday I don't need my pastor telling me how much I am sinning, I know that - what I need is for him/her to tell me that there are people hurting in the world and that I have responsibility to do something about - even if those people who are hurting are people who are homosexual or people who had an abortion - or people who had a baby out of wedlock. I don't need to tell them they are condemned because of their sin and my preacher doesn't either. What needs to happen is someone to help them if they are hurting or hungry or poor - and sometimes that someone needs to be the government and sometimes it needs to be me railing against the government that upholds policies that allow these people to suffer.

I think my most important responsibilty is to express God's Unconditional Love to everybody.

No, what I think is that even with the first scripture we are not to judge until we have removed all sin from our life - that will never happen, therefore we should never judge.

Besides that, when the lord taught us to pray he said that we should forgive those who sin against us.

You know, when someone sins against God it seems to me that we should let that be between them an God - not us. We are never to convict (as I mentioned before only the HOLY SPIRIT does that) - we are simply to show God's love. Once we can get someone started in a relationship with God, then God can work to help them become more like Jesus and we can help through guided discipleship. We draw no one to God by pointing out their sins. We draw them to God by showing God's love. I think it is that simple.

If I have a Christian brother (someone with whom I have a relationship) and I see that he is abusive to his wife, then I could probably have a talk with him about that "SIN" and I can rail against domestic abuse in general - but I don't know that I should approach people I don't know and tell them to help their wife around the house more and not be so demeaning to her.

Was reading through some Scripture and came upon a couple of things that I thought was revelent to the discussion that has been in here.

 

First Matthew 7:5...

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

 

The first part of the Scripture I bolded because it is quoted a lot to indicate to people that we should not judge. But at the end of that Scripture it indicates that judging can occur when you have examined yourself and taking care of the sins in your life. I have italics it.

 

I point out that it tells us to take the SPECIFIC sin out of our lives AND THEN WE can see clearly to tell others about sin.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - Not a specific sin, but sin in general.

is it possible that the devil tempts us to sin and that our faith is tested when things happen to us that were not in our plans, but in God's plan.

For example - My father died when I was 5 (1972) I would think that tested the faith of my mother and the rest of my family. They could choose to trust God to help them get through the test, or they could lose faith. Not saying that God took the life of my father, but that event TESTED the faith of Christians.

Temptation on the other hand is when something "beautiful" is placed before us that if we partake of will harm us.

Believe it or not, I'm not out to argue with you no matter what... :lol:

 

You make spiritual arguments I agree with, but politically we seem to be coming at this from different directions.

 

It all depends upon how you define poverty. You refer to the "working poor." What annual income qualifies as working poor by your definitions?

The working poor are those that are employed yet live below the poverty line and as a result do not have any expendable cash. In other words, all of their money (plus some help from the taxpayers) goes to cover essentials.

No one said anything about living high on the hog while on welfare. I do contend that in our attempt to be compassionate, and with certain politician's attempts to secure power by locking in votes among their "dependents", our government has usurped the position of fathers in many, many poor families. This has led to many social ills that must be cured.

I am sure if somebody did a quick search the you will find that the poor are not a significant voting block

USURPED no, stepped in yes.