halfback20

I already told you what his justification was.

 

Is it ideal? Of course not. In a perfect world, he wouldn't feel the need to shoot back at all. West Louisville isn't that perfect world, but that's for a whole separate discussion.

 

Police initiated this. Period. It doesn't matter to me why he shot back after that.

You're argument doesn't stand on its own. You say he could shoot because they shot.

No one was shooting anything the second time he came out and started trying to kill them.

People were shooting at his business and the people outside it. He didn't know who or what. That's his justification, in my opinion.

 

What, in your opinion, justified police shooting at people to start the altercation?

No one was shooting anything the second time he started shooting. So what justified the second round?

I dont know why the police fired pepper balls. It doesn't matter though to me. He can't defend minor property damage with deadly force.

Nobody was shooting at anybody when the cops fired TWICE at the building with pepper balls. I'm talking about what started the whole incident.

 

 

 

If you can't see the large group of police with four camera angles, how can you say that McAtee should have known it was the police shooting?

 

The justification he had for shooting was that he lives/works in a bad part of town and people get shot at all the time. He/they were shot at twice, he shot once and went back out a second time in which he was shot.

Again, the pepper gun does not sound anything like a real gun.

Also, again, i didn't have the advantage of being there. I can't hear anything, I can't look around. I dont hear what people are saying.

4 camera angles? I feel like I've only seen 2, maybe I'm mistaken. One inside, one outside.

What, in your opinion, justified him shooting a second time? I don't feel like you've said.

You won't "play my game" because you and everyone else knows you wouldn't use the same lethal vs. non-lethal argument in favor of David McAtee.

 

The police weren't justified in shooting at anyone. Anyone without a bias can see that. You won't lose your badge if you admit that, I promise. As long as we're arguing about what is justified and what isn't, that's where we start. Police don't shoot at the building, no incident.

 

You continue to assume McAtee knew it was the cops that were shooting. You just said yourself "It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there." But McAtee is supposed to know exactly who/what is shooting? How?

 

For the last time. Cops can't just go around shooting at whoever they want, whenever they want, and expecting nothing in return. You shoot at me, I'm shooting back. Unfortunately for David McAtee, he doesn't have the same protection cops have.

I'm not playing that game because it never happened. That's it.

Police were justified based on what I've seen, to defend themselves and others from someone shooting into a crowded area.

It's hard for me to see ON VIDEO the large group of police. I wasn't there. You realize that makes a difference, right? I can't hear anything and have one camera angle.

Still waiting, what justification did he have to shoot a second time? He stopped. They stopped shooting their paintball gun that sounds nothing like a real gun, he started shooting again. That is justified to you?

Were the cops and National Guard the only people outside?

 

I did initially say that, because that's all he had, OUTSIDE.

 

What is the justification for police instigating the altercation?

 

If McAtee shot at police with pepper balls, would you say they are justified in using lethal force?

I'm not playing your hypothetical game. That isn't what happened.

Police were called to that area to disperse crowds. It's hard to tell how many police are there and it's hard to tell how many civilians are there. I dont know what was said or happened, there is no audio and only one camera angle.

Police are allowed to use pepper balls to disperse crowds, but again, I don't know why they shot them at this crowd.

Regardless, it didn't justify his actions. He made a stupid decision I wouldn't recommend anyone make. He made an even worse decision coming back for a second shot at police when they were not doing anything at all. You think that was a good idea, or the right thing to do?

No one was committing a crime when police shot TWO times at people outside the business. That's BEFORE anybody shot back at them.

 

 

 

So we don't know exactly why police shot at them, but you know that the people inside the business knew exactly who were shooting at them, why, and where from? Just stop.

There was a large group of police and National Guard outside. You think no one knew who they were? Just stop.

Didn't you initially say there was no gun and all he had was tongs?

Why does it matter who they are? You apparently think a couple pepper balls equals a death sentence regardless of who did it.

I don't know why they shot non lethal pepper balls but that doesn't give anyone an excuse to try and murder them, even if they were initially wrong.

 

Again. Cops can't just go shooting at whoever they want, whenever they want, and not expect anyone to shoot back. Especially in a part of town where gunfire, random and intentional, happens all the time.

 

Lethal or non-lethal is irrelevant, they shot at innocent people for absolutely no reason, and one of those people defended themselves. Are you saying McAtee shouldn't have defended his business and family?

 

If McAtee had shot pepper bullets at police, you expect me to believe wouldn't say police would be justified in using lethal rounds?

 

I dont know why they were there or why they shot pepper balls but it doesn't justify trying to kill them.

 

Yea I am most definitely saying he shouldn't have shot a gun at police and National Guard to defend his family from possibly a little uncomfortable burning. He would be alive today if he didn't do that. I think he'd be alive if he didn't come out shooting a second time.

 

 

Should business owners be able to kill looters?

I have so many issues with this situation that it is hard to focus on individual elements. By the time the last few seconds of the event occurred it seemed a lot went wrong with LEO (collective police and National Guard) tactics and actions.

 

- LEO initiates firing (live rounds or pepperball makes zero difference)

- LEO does this from a distance on a family that is obviously and clearly not engaged in riots, looting, etc.

- LEO engages at short distance (right at property line) after everyone is now in the residence. Do not really care if its pepperballs or live rounds. To someone engaged with the attackers (that is what LEO was at this point) the type of projectiles is not something to analyze in real time.

- LEO made their approach with numerous obsticles in the way between them and house door where the family and friends took cover. A fence, a high top with cans on it, tent, car. Thus, who they were, what they were shooting and why they were there may have all been hard to decipher in real time.

- There is a lot of firing from LEO during the engagement. You can see sparks from live rounds hitting things. The tent ruffles.

 

In general, LEO forced an armed aggressive engagement that seemed completely unnecessary. A man was killed IN HIS OWN HOME. And when he was killed he was not being detained, he was not being served a warrant, he was not in commission of a crime, he was not resisting arrest. He was defending his family from an assault on his home, business and family members.

A pepper ball gun sounds nothing like a real gun. Not even close.

He was in the commission of a crime. He was shooting wildly into the street at police, national guard and any innocent bystanders.

That's several crimes.

I dont know why police shot pepper balls and you don't either. You don't know what exactly happened based on one view from outside.

Law enforcement fired their guns the second time he shot at them. What excuse can you make for him trying to kill them the second time? Everyone has retreated and took cover and were no longer shooting anything.

I would bet everyone that ran inside knew who was there and what they were doing. You think none of them said who or what was going on while they were coming in?

What justification did the cops have to shoot at the people outside the business??

 

There is no “may be” true. They shot pepper balls at/towards the business and people outside it twice before McAtee allegedly shot back. It doesn’t matter what the police shot at them with, especially when they had no business shooting at them in the first place.

 

Police can’t just go around shooting at people, with anything, just because they want to. Then shoot at somebody and expect them not to shoot back? Please... get over yourselves.

 

Police instigated this situation, as usual.

I don't know why they shot non lethal pepper balls but that doesn't give anyone an excuse to try and murder them, even if they were initially wrong.

Never mind the fact that they stopped and he came out to shoot a second time.

So one or two misplaced pepper balls = a death sentence in your opinion? You are OK with him killing police and National Guard over something that burns a little?

Are you saying you think business owners should be allowed to kill looters then?

Shot at with what?

Let's say police fired pepper balls at his business first. That may be true. It isn't justification to kill them, national guard or innocent people around.

He responded with gunfire. Police stopped shooting pepper balls and took cover along with the national guard.

He started shooting again.

Why did he do that? They stopped shooting pepper balls and had not fired a single round of gunfire at him.

This was basically obvious from the video(s).

 

The woman was "armed" with a paintball gun. The NGuardsmen were backup with lethal weapons. She backed off to the other side of the street and the NG then continued the engagement.

 

I would like to know where and why the first noticeable round comes into the group while the police are still across the street and closing in on the residence. A round from a rifle or a paintball gun definitely comes from the police and NG to start this incident.

They said today police or national guard did not fire anything but pepper balls until Mcatee came to the door shooting, at which time they retreated and took cover. He came back for a second round, and that is when they returned fire.

His business and the people outside it were shot at first, so yes. Is that an ideal reaction? No, but I certainly understand.

Shot at with what?

At least we have clarity on whether or not McAtee fired his weapon.

 

LMPD/National Guard still initiated this confrontation, and McAtee was killed defending his business.

Are you okay with him firing wildly into the streets towards police, National guard and possibly others?

Brown said judging by the bullet fragments found in McAtee during his autopsy, it was clear that the deadly shot came from a National Guard officer, not an LMPD officer, as had been previously believed.

Brown also said the state crime lab determined that McAtee’s handgun had been fired at least twice on the night of the shooting, adding that gunshot residue was found on his person. Brown said he thought McAtee fired first.

 

“Based on the information I have at this time, it appears to me (that officers) were returning fire,” Brown said.

David McAtee shot dead by National Guard officer, not an LMPD officer, state investigators say

Is it not part of the entire problem that someone possibly called on Arbery but not other people that did the same thing?

Anybody in the area could have called and said it was an "ongoing problem." If the homeowner wasn't the one calling to report the "problem," someone was being nosy and not minding their own business.

 

Who said they knew Ahmaud and that he had been there before the day in question?

 

And you're right. This entire line of discussion is irrelevant to what happened that day, glad you pointed that out.

“And he’s been caught on camera a bunch at night. It’s kind of an ongoing thing. The man building the house has got heart issues. I think he’s not going to finish it.”

https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_news/dispatcher-what-was-he-doing-wrong/article_fe51cdd4-3bb6-5815-9dec-ddcdc8f879f8.html

It raises a lot of questions. He seemed to know a lot about the cameras. How'd he know the guy there had been there before? Did he have camera access? Did he know others had been there? Did he call on others?

The homeowner is the one who turned over the video to show Arbery wasn't the only person that had gone in and out of it.

Irrelevant to what happened that day.

Someone called with knowledge that he had been in the house before and said it was an "ongoing problem".

How did they know who was there and that it was an ongoing problem? If they knew he had been there before they knew others had too right? Why didn't they call on other people?

I don't know for sure but its possible the homeowner is just distancing himself from people who took things way too far. Hopefully we find out.

Someone called while he was in the house and mentioned that he had been there on camera a bunch and it was an ongoing problem. Person mentioned the homeowner is sick and probably isn't going to finish the house. Made me think they know him or are taking care of the house, because they knew so much.

If they called police on him and no one else that was in the house they're pay of the problem.

Obviously the people who chased him down and shot him are the bigger problem.

The homeowner did not call the police.

Someone associated with the house did though right?

In the above article, there is a video showing several different people going onto the same property as Ahmaud, at different times, including at night.

Did the homeowner call police on all of them? Because he did call them on Arbery didn't he?

If he called on Arbery and not on anyone else, he is part of the problem.

Maybe I'm mistaken and he didn't call them.

It doesn't seem like he was charged federally. Everything that I saw/quoted was from Hennepin County.

 

But, in my search, it appears it's not uncommon for it to take 4-8 months for federal charges to be filed. So, we've got a long time before that window.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting that to happen soon. Would be interesting if they didn't charge Noor but do charge these 4 officers.

Okay, after doing a little research, I've found this...

 

Minneapolis Police Officer Mohamed Noor was found guilty on third degree murder and manslaughter charges in May 2019. Noor was the one who shot and killed Justine Diamond, an unarmed Australian woman living in Minneapolis who was fatally shot after calling 911 to report a possible sexual assault.

 

Noor was sentenced to serve 12 1/2 years in prison.

 

Noor with second degree murder, but the jury acquitted him on that account. The guidelines recommend 12 1/2 years for unintentional second degree murder, but go up to 25 1/2 for intentional second degree murder.

 

So, it sounds like it is possible to have second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter charges all up for grabs when it goes to trial in Minnesota.

 

What I'm still unsure of in the Floyd case is, were the charges to include second-degree murder (along with third degree)...or were the charges upgraded to replace third degree with second-degree? I agree with MJ on this, there is a risk/reward for doing it either way.

Agreed on risk. If they don't charge both and fail at convicting on 2nd, it's over unless there are federal charges.

Did Noor get charged federally?

I would make sure that the background investigation included candidates’ social media accounts. Maybe they do already, I don’t know. You might not eliminate many candidates, but at least those who are stupid enough to keep certain content out there could be culled right away.

I can't speak to all police departments but the one's I am familiar with do.

I got no clue. I'm not familiar at all with what someone must go through. But from a PR standpoint, it would make sense for larger metro police departments, to definitely be announcing a few new tactics in their vetting process.

There isn't any PR good enough to change some people's minds. If they announced something liken that they would be lucky to get an article with 100 views.

A police officer from Moody, Alabama was shot and killed last night according to twitter.