Clyde Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 One out. Bases loaded. Hard ground ball one hops the third baseman. He steps on 3rd. R1 runs to 2nd base and touches 2nd base but thinks the 3rd baseman caught the ball in the air. He runs back to first. F5 throws the ball to F4 who steps on 2nd base. However, R3 touches home plate before the throw to F4. How many outs on the play? Does the run count?
KYFEDUMP Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 One out. Bases loaded. Hard ground ball one hops the third baseman. He steps on 3rd. R1 runs to 2nd base and touches 2nd base but thinks the 3rd baseman caught the ball in the air. He runs back to first. F5 throws the ball to F4 who steps on 2nd base. However, R3 touches home plate before the throw to F4. How many outs on the play? Does the run count? Two outs...no runs score. By returning to first after touching second, the force out situation at second is reinstated. Since the third out was a result of the force out at second, no runs score.
cooperstown Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Two outs...no runs score. By returning to first after touching second, the force out situation at second is reinstated. Since the third out was a result of the force out at second, no runs score. This certainly sounds correct to me.
Clyde Posted May 4, 2009 Author Posted May 4, 2009 I had not thought about the force being reinstated.
baseball4life Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 Had another call for you guys. There is one out, runner on first and a runner on third. Batter flyes out to right field but the runner on first took of running. The fly ball was caught and then the right fielder throwed the ball to the pitcher covering first for the 3rd out. the kid on 3rd was taging. Should the run have scored or not? If so what is the difference when you turn a double play in the infield 6-4-3 to get out of a bases loaded inning. Also we had a umpire call a baulk Friday and said that either the shortstop or the second basemen needed to be close to the bag if the pitcher rotated around to fake a throw to second.
Clyde Posted May 4, 2009 Author Posted May 4, 2009 Had another call for you guys. There is one out, runner on first and a runner on third. Batter flyes out to right field but the runner on first took of running. The fly ball was caught and then the right fielder throwed the ball to the pitcher covering first for the 3rd out. the kid on 3rd was taging. Should the run have scored or not? If so what is the difference when you turn a double play in the infield 6-4-3 to get out of a bases loaded inning. Also we had a umpire call a baulk Friday and said that either the shortstop or the second basemen needed to be close to the bag if the pitcher rotated around to fake a throw to second. If the run scored before the runner was out at first, it counts. Difference between a 6-4-3 is that in that play the third out would be a force out. In your play described above, it is not a force out. If the umpire said what you claimed, he was wrong.
KYFEDUMP Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 I had not thought about the force being reinstated. Clyde, 2009 NFHS Casebook 2.29.3 Situation
EQUUS GREVYI Posted May 4, 2009 Posted May 4, 2009 All right, how about this one. I heard this a couple of years back from a Major League Game so it may not apply here. The way I heard it, Major League baseball actually changed the final score of a game after the fact, although it didn't change the outcome. Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out in a inning other than the last. Squeeze play on but the batter pops-up the bunt. The runner from third crosses the plate, the pitcher catches the pop fly (2 outs) and doubles the runner off of 1st (third out). Not sure if this was by tagging first base or tagging the runner (or if that matters). Defense walks off the field to the dugout. Run not counted. After the game the run is then added back to the final score because defense didn't appeal that runner left third early. Is this correct?
Clyde Posted May 4, 2009 Author Posted May 4, 2009 All right, how about this one. I heard this a couple of years back from a Major League Game so it may not apply here. The way I heard it, Major League baseball actually changed the final score of a game after the fact, although it didn't change the outcome. Runners on 1st and 3rd with 1 out in a inning other than the last. Squeeze play on but the batter pops-up the bunt. The runner from third crosses the plate, the pitcher catches the pop fly (2 outs) and doubles the runner off of 1st (third out). Not sure if this was by tagging first base or tagging the runner (or if that matters). Defense walks off the field to the dugout. Run not counted. After the game the run is then added back to the final score because defense didn't appeal that runner left third early. Is this correct? A similar play happened this season in the Dodgers/Dbacks game. This would be the "advantageous 4th out" situation. If the defense did not challenge the runner leaving early the run counts. However, they could have challenged it and taken that as the third out instead of the actual 3rd out and wiped the run off the board.
KYFEDUMP Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 A similar play happened this season in the Dodgers/Dbacks game. This would be the "advantageous 4th out" situation. If the defense did not challenge the runner leaving early the run counts. However, they could have challenged it and taken that as the third out instead of the actual 3rd out and wiped the run off the board. All the above points are correct, Clyde. As we (or I) learned from an earlier rules quiz post, under OBR the play could be appealed until the first pitch to a subsequent batter in the next inning. :thumb:
baseball4life Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) On the call I asked about the runner on first was running on the pitch to the plate so he did not tag up he was forced to go back to first before the ball gets there. So the run should not count right if there is a force out in that case. Edited May 5, 2009 by Ram Rule 13
Clyde Posted May 5, 2009 Author Posted May 5, 2009 On the call i asked about the runner on first was running on the pitch to the plate so he did not tag up he was forced to go back to first before the ball gets there. So the run should not count right if there is a force out in that case. Your play is not a "force" play which is why the run would count.
bulldog77 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 While it is not a force play, it is a continuation of the batted ball because the runner did not tag up and was still in jeopardy to be put out at his original base at the time of the pitch. Runner out, no run scores.
Clyde Posted May 5, 2009 Author Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) While it is not a force play, it is a continuation of the batted ball because the runner did not tag up and was still in jeopardy to be put out at his original base at the time of the pitch. Runner out, no run scores. BD77 - I am going to disagree with you. This is an appeal play which means its a timing play. If the run scored before the appeal, it counts. Time of pitch does not come into play here. Edited May 5, 2009 by Clyde
jpa2825 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Does it matter whether he retouches 2nd on his way back to 1st? If he doesn't retouch, isn't he out for failing to do so (and the run would count b/c 3rd out is not a force out?) If he does retouch, is that what puts the force back into play such that the out at 2nd IS a force out and therefore the run does not score?
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