He was struck blind "for a time being" so that he could ultimately "see". It was about redemption and reconciliation.

 

Is it loving and caring then?

Are you saying doing something bad to someone then CAN BE loving and caring?

Vanquished??? I am allowing myself to assume that your premise of Satan is true.

 

What does vanquished mean?

Taken out of existence?

I read the columns and found them interesting. One of my many problems I had when I attended church was that I felt as though I believed many things simply because I had been instructed to, I had never reached my own conclusions. Once I did I began to disagree with many things, particularly the petty issues the church focused on. Anyhow, I found this particular view of eternal punishment interesting, and one I will give consideration to as I look into it further.

 

I've read the linked columns, what do those who believe in an everlasting, tormenting hell support their views with?

Can't remember, did Mr. Queen address Jesus parable of the narrow door.

Luke 13

The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

 

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

 

27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

 

28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

 

Lots of indication there of a Hell and people separated from God.

I read the columns and found them interesting. One of my many problems I had when I attended church was that I felt as though I believed many things simply because I had been instructed to, I had never reached my own conclusions. Once I did I began to disagree with many things, particularly the petty issues the church focused on. Anyhow, I found this particular view of eternal punishment interesting, and one I will give consideration to as I look into it further.

 

I've read the linked columns, what do those who believe in an everlasting, tormenting hell support their views with?

 

I am in the midst of posting some.

 

Matthew 25

30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

I find this one that indicates people will be thrown out into darkness where it will be bad very intriguing because IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING it is the Scripture that Ace uses alot to support his view.

 

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

So, if you are going to use Matthew 25 to support your view of taking care of the poor, then how can you discount the same Scripture where it talks about an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT (46) that seems to be in darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Lots of indication there of a Hell and people separated from God.

 

I see. But is there any indication this separation continues into perpetuity or that those who are not saved (rewarded eternal life) will not then perish?

Matthew 24

48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

This one says that the master, I would assume God/Jesus will return and cut him to pieces and assign him a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Can't remember, did Mr. Queen address Jesus parable of the narrow door.

Luke 13

The Narrow Door

22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

 

26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

 

27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

 

28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

 

Lots of indication there of a Hell and people separated from God.

 

Hopefully this is in response to two threads:

 

When I send my son to his room (which he hates b/c he is very social) I am doing something "bad" to him, but sometimes that is the only way I can get him to understand the severity of his act. It gives him time to think about it and hopefully when it is over he and I reconcile and he is "redeemed" (read - turns from his evil ways).

 

I have never said, and I don't believe that the articles indicate that everyone will die and go to heaven. So don't make that leap. The question revolves around the nature and purpose of hell.

I see. But is there any indication this separation continues into perpetuity or that those who are not saved (rewarded eternal life) will not then perish?

 

Post 35 uses Ace's favorite Scripture of Matthew 25 and IT SAYS eternal punishment.

 

If eternal salvation is for all eternity, does it not make sense that eternal punishment is for all eternity?

Hopefully this is in response to two threads:

 

When I send my son to his room (which he hates b/c he is very social) I am doing something "bad" to him, but sometimes that is the only way I can get him to understand the severity of his act. It gives him time to think about it and hopefully when it is over he and I reconcile and he is "redeemed" (read - turns from his evil ways).

 

I have never said, and I don't believe that the articles indicate that everyone will die and go to heaven. So don't make that leap. The question revolves around the nature and purpose of hell.

 

That is great.

 

What if he doesn't reconcile and be redeemed?

What if he continues to do the same things?

What if he never stops doing the same things that got him punished?

You going to say, well I tried, don't worry about it son and keep on doing it?

 

You can still love it and will, but what will you do about his behavior if he NEVER reconciles and changes his behavior that you punished.

 

You acceptance and handling of that behavior has ZERO to do with your love for him.

 

You may have to kick him out of your house because he refuses to reconcile but you will still love him while you are doing it.

 

God's love for us and God's judgement for OUR BEHAVIOR AND OUR CHOICES have no link. He can love me all the while of punishing me.

 

I punished my daughter tonight and I was loving her the whole time I was doing it. She didn't think so but I love her no less, no more despite the punishment.

I am in the midst of posting some.

 

Matthew 25

30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

I find this one that indicates people will be thrown out into darkness where it will be bad very intriguing because IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING it is the Scripture that Ace uses alot to support his view.

 

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

 

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

So, if you are going to use Matthew 25 to support your view of taking care of the poor, then how can you discount the same Scripture where it talks about an ETERNAL PUNISHMENT (46) that seems to be in darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

I struggle with it. But I also struggle with "why do you get on to this young lady for washing my feet with this expensive perfume? I know you could sell it and use the money to take care of the poor, but you know, the poor will always be here and I am just here for a short time." not meant to be blasphemous but I did not want to look it up tonight.

That is great.

 

What if he doesn't reconcile and be redeemed?

What if he continues to do the same things?

What if he never stops doing the same things that got him punished?

You going to say, well I tried, don't worry about it son and keep on doing it?

 

You can still love it and will, but what will you do about his behavior if he NEVER reconciles and changes his behavior that you punished.

 

You acceptance and handling of that behavior has ZERO to do with your love for him.

 

You may have to kick him out of your house because he refuses to reconcile but you will still love him while you are doing it.

 

God's love for us and God's judgement for OUR BEHAVIOR AND OUR CHOICES have no link. He can love me all the while of punishing me.

 

I punished my daughter tonight and I was loving her the whole time I was doing it. She didn't think so but I love her no less, no more despite the punishment.

 

 

And when he finally decides to turn his life around and come home - I will wait for him with open arms . . . just like the parable of the waiting father (prodigal son.) I will never give up on him.

I have been taught that his parable ties in with the wedding banquet in Revelations.

 

Matthew 22

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'

 

5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

 

8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

 

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

 

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

Again darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I struggle with it. But I also struggle with "why do you get on to this young lady for washing my feet with this expensive perfume? I know you could sell it and use the money to take care of the poor, but you know, the poor will always be here and I am just here for a short time." not meant to be blasphemous but I did not want to look it up tonight.

 

I agree with that is hard and you have to read that while we are to help the poor, we are not going to solve poverty.

I read the columns and found them interesting. One of my many problems I had when I attended church was that I felt as though I believed many things simply because I had been instructed to, I had never reached my own conclusions. Once I did I began to disagree with many things, particularly the petty issues the church focused on. Anyhow, I found this particular view of eternal punishment interesting, and one I will give consideration to as I look into it further.

 

I've read the linked columns, what do those who believe in an everlasting, tormenting hell support their views with?

 

Open discussion is always good. I have grown more and spent more time studying since my beliefs have been challenged by what he is saying.