God has granted us authority. All authority belongs to God, but he has put human beings on earth as caretakers. What is task? According to Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20m we are to go out and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey God in EVERY area of life. This includes politics. We must desciple people to make Godly decision about government, and promote the efoorts of those who are already doing so.

 

We need to stand against evil (poverty and social injustice). St Augustine said those who are citizens of God's kingdom are best equipped to be citizens of the kingdom of man. The alternative is unthinkable. In the 20th Century, because of poor governments 170 million men, women and children have been brutally murdered - by the governments. Historian John Hallowell "Only throuogh a return to faith in God, as God revealed Himself to man in Jesus Christ, can modern man AND HIS SOCIETY find redemption from the tyranny of evil."

 

It is Christian involvement through the government that has given us hospitals, civil liberties, abolition of slavery, modern science, the elevation of women, regard for humn life, great works of art and literature, a workable system of justice, education for common people, the free-enterprise system, and much more.

 

Obedience to authority demands good citizenship. The Apostle Pual in Romans chapter 13 clearly states that we must obey government leaders because all authority comes from God. HERE's the CATCH: in America, the PEOPLE are the LEADERS!!

God has granted us authority. All authority belongs to God, but he has put human beings on earth as caretakers. What is task? According to Jesus in Matthew 28:18-20m we are to go out and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey God in EVERY area of life. This includes politics. We must desciple people to make Godly decision about government, and promote the efoorts of those who are already doing so.

 

We need to stand against evil (poverty and social injustice). St Augustine said those who are citizens of God's kingdom are best equipped to be citizens of the kingdom of man. The alternative is unthinkable. In the 20th Century, because of poor governments 170 million men, women and children have been brutally murdered - by the governments. Historian John Hallowell "Only throuogh a return to faith in God, as God revealed Himself to man in Jesus Christ, can modern man AND HIS SOCIETY find redemption from the tyranny of evil."

 

It is Christian involvement through the government that has given us hospitals, civil liberties, abolition of slavery, modern science, the elevation of women, regard for humn life, great works of art and literature, a workable system of justice, education for common people, the free-enterprise system, and much more.

 

Obedience to authority demands good citizenship. The Apostle Pual in Romans chapter 13 clearly states that we must obey government leaders because all authority comes from God. HERE's the CATCH: in America, the PEOPLE are the LEADERS!!

And yet we have created a governmental system in this country in which our politicians are consistently told that they have to leave their Christian faith at the door of the governmental offices and quit trying to force their faith on others.

 

John Kerry even said in the campaign he had to seperate himself from his faith in his judgement when he went to DC. He lost my vote on that comment.

 

Again, you have not answered one of my questions I have posed over and over to you. If Jesus felt that the government systems were the answer and not the church why did he not lead an overthrow of the Roman Empire's government structure or even the political structure with King Herod of Israel as so many of His followers wanted Him to do?

 

My faith is not in a system that was designed by our Founding Fathers but in a system that was founded by our Heavenly Father.

And yet we have created a governmental system in this country in which our politicians are consistently told that they have to leave their Christian faith at the door of the governmental offices and quit trying to force their faith on others.

 

John Kerry even said in the campaign he had to seperate himself from his faith in his judgement when he went to DC. He lost my vote on that comment.

 

Again, you have not answered one of my questions I have posed over and over to you. If Jesus felt that the government systems were the answer and not the church why did he not lead an overthrow of the Roman Empire's government structure or even the political structure with King Herod of Israel as so many of His followers wanted Him to do?

 

My faith is not in a system that was designed by our Founding Fathers but in a system that was founded by our Heavenly Father.

 

Again I will ask - why then are you wanting to use the government to fix abortion and not poverty and suffering. The church should fix the abortion issue. You say the church cannot, I say the church cannot fix the institutions and policies and systems the create poverty, the church can only help alleviate the symptons - the Church cannot cure poverty, the government can create plans that lesson it. If the government is good for one, it is good for both. By the way, AGAIN the government does not create abortion it ALLOWS abortion. IF WE CAN PASS LAWS THAT SAY ALLOWING ABORTION IS A SIN THEREFORE WE WILL BAN IT, LETS PASS A LAW THAT SAYS ALLOWING POVERTY IS A SIN THEREFORE WE WILL BAN IT. NO MORE ABORTION, NO MORE POVERTY, NO MORE PEOPLE WITHOUT HEALTH CARE. You say, but people make decisions to be poor, I say people make decisions to have abortions. And you say it is not okay to have an abortion, and I say it is not okay to be poor. But you say abortion kills another human being, and I say hunger kills human beings, as does the cold of winter as does no healthcare.

 

I have answered your question over and over again - Jesus left it to his people and in our country, the government is the PEOPLE.

 

I am sure that you would not have voted for John Kerry even if he had not said that.

 

the reason many feel that they have to leave the Christian faith behind when they enter politics is b/c so many have such a narrow view of the christian faith and its values. You should leave proseltyzing and evangelizing behind, but you can never the leave the love of God behind and a Christian nations policies ought to reflect the love of Jesus - in everything not just Abortion.

Again I will ask - why then are you wanting to use the government to fix abortion and not poverty and suffering. The church should fix the abortion issue. You say the church cannot, I say the church cannot fix the institutions and policies and systems the create poverty, the church can only help alleviate the symptons - the Church cannot cure poverty, the government can create plans that lesson it. If the government is good for one, it is good for both. By the way, AGAIN the government does not create abortion it ALLOWS abortion. IF WE CAN PASS LAWS THAT SAY ALLOWING ABORTION IS A SIN THEREFORE WE WILL BAN IT, LETS PASS A LAW THAT SAYS ALLOWING POVERTY IS A SIN THEREFORE WE WILL BAN IT. NO MORE ABORTION, NO MORE POVERTY, NO MORE PEOPLE WITHOUT HEALTH CARE. You say, but people make decisions to be poor, I say people make decisions to have abortions. And you say it is not okay to have an abortion, and I say it is not okay to be poor. But you say abortion kills another human being, and I say hunger kills human beings, as does the cold of winter as does no healthcare.

 

I have answered your question over and over again - Jesus left it to his people and in our country, the government is the PEOPLE.

 

I am sure that you would not have voted for John Kerry even if he had not said that.

 

the reason many feel that they have to leave the Christian faith behind when they enter politics is b/c so many have such a narrow view of the christian faith and its values. You should leave proseltyzing and evangelizing behind, but you can never the leave the love of God behind and a Christian nations policies ought to reflect the love of Jesus - in everything not just Abortion.

And I have answered yours. Government made a policy that protects the right to an abortion. As I have answered before and you don't seem to accept is the best way to solve abortion is for the church to change the mindset of the populace and not seek abortions. Churches are doing this through their own means or supporting organizations that do. But with government in essence making abortions a legal option, that needs to also be addressed. If Roe vs. Wade had never came into play, than I would not see a need to use the government to solve the abortion issue. My understanding, the church is not the one that first sought the need of a Supreme Court decision to allow abortions but those on the other side of the issue. And for the record, the lady that sought the abortion, later recanted that it was a good decision, became a Christian and campaigned against abortion rights.

 

Absolutely, the government should be involved in those things that you mention. My view is that they should be involved but the church is the one that can solve.

 

So when you become a politician, using the Scripture that you used, it frees you from the responsibility of making disciples?

 

And please don't lower this good debate to the point of making it a political slam. Kerry was pro-life and I would have seriously considered voting for him as I have DEMOCRAT Ken Lucas in each of his races (up to this point:sssh: ) I look at issues AND NOT the political party.

And I have answered yours. Government made a policy that protects the right to an abortion. As I have answered before and you don't seem to accept is the best way to solve abortion is for the church to change the mindset of the populace and not seek abortions. Churches are doing this through their own means or supporting organizations that do. But with government in essence making abortions a legal option, that needs to also be addressed. If Roe vs. Wade had never came into play, than I would not see a need to use the government to solve the abortion issue. My understanding, the church is not the one that first sought the need of a Supreme Court decision to allow abortions but those on the other side of the issue. And for the record, the lady that sought the abortion, later recanted that it was a good decision, became a Christian and campaigned against abortion rights.

 

Absolutely, the government should be involved in those things that you mention. My view is that they should be involved but the church is the one that can solve.

 

So when you become a politician, using the Scripture that you used, it frees you from the responsibility of making disciples?

 

And please don't lower this good debate to the point of making it a political slam. Kerry was pro-life and I would have seriously considered voting for him as I have DEMOCRAT Ken Lucas in each of his races (up to this point:sssh: ) I look at issues AND NOT the political party.

 

How could the CHURCH have solved the practice of institutional segregation. It could not have unless it made it illegal. Explain to me how the church CURES poverty. Not, how does it help (a very few) those who are poor, how does it get rid of poverty? How does the church provide health care to 10 Million uninsured children (I will use HHS #s, I think my 46 million was total population and not just children). The Church cannot solve those, so it should work through the government to cure them - just like you want it to with Abortion.

How does the Church change the mindset to have people not seek abortions? I hope that it is not by simply telling someone it is a sin and that they should not do it. Is it by creating an environment that reduces the # of unwanted pregnancies (sex ed., that includes abstinence and birth control) and eliminating the socio-economic conditions of the group that is most likely to have abortions (poor white women). You see, as a general rule here is what a poor white woman hears from the Christian right (not you necessarily, but what THEY hear) is that A) What a sinner you are for getting pregnant out of wedlock - B) You are only having babies to collect more Welfare -C) you cannot have an abortion because that is a sin, but we are not going to help you with the means to raise the child. D) You should really just carry the baby to term, fall in love with it, make it a part of your life, and then give it away. You know there will be no social repercussions from your immediate communty who will look down on you for giving a baby away.

 

Why do wealthy white women have fewer abortions than poor white women - do they have less sex? I doubt it.

 

I think you are wanting the government to take care of a sympton and not a root cause.

How could the CHURCH have solved the practice of institutional segregation. It could not have unless it made it illegal. Explain to me how the church CURES poverty. Not, how does it help (a very few) those who are poor, how does it get rid of poverty? How does the church provide health care to 10 Million uninsured children (I will use HHS #s, I think my 46 million was total population and not just children). The Church cannot solve those, so it should work through the government to cure them - just like you want it to with Abortion.

Has the government's outlawing of segregation solved the problem of racism and racists in this country?

 

I contend that true poverty exists in a very small number of cases. The standard of living of our poor is the middle class for a large percentage of the world. We call it poverty because it gets votes for the politicians.

 

There was a church that I just read about in my Outreach magazine that offered free flu shots to anyone that was of low income and wanted them.

 

And the government can legislate all of the things that you want but it still will not change the mindset of this country. That is done in the churches.

 

Are you suggesting that we do away with seperation of church and state and make this a Christian state, in which the church plays an active role in the government? Because presently the government is threatening some Christian churches of their Not-for-profit status because of being too involved in politics and endorsing candidates.

 

I am talking about true changes where the people WANT to do it because it is the RIGHT thing to do and not because the government mandates it. And as I have said over and over, that is one of the aims that the church has today with abortion. There are constantly programs and groups and advertisments about other choices than abortion. There are programs to counsel mothers AFTER an abortion. There are programs to counsel mothers BEFORE abortions. There are programs designed to financially, with baby supplies, support the mother. All of those are programs that the church is involved in that receive very little recognition or media coverage because it doesn't sell ads and bring the media profits.

How does the Church change the mindset to have people not seek abortions? I hope that it is not by simply telling someone it is a sin and that they should not do it. Is it by creating an environment that reduces the # of unwanted pregnancies (sex ed., that includes abstinence and birth control) and eliminating the socio-economic conditions of the group that is most likely to have abortions (poor white women). You see, as a general rule here is what a poor white woman hears from the Christian right (not you necessarily, but what THEY hear) is that A) What a sinner you are for getting pregnant out of wedlock - B) You are only having babies to collect more Welfare -C) you cannot have an abortion because that is a sin.

 

Why do wealthy white women have fewer abortions than poor white women - do they have less sex? I doubt it.

As I answered in the post above this, that is the message the media portrays and conveniently leaves out all of the programs that I have mentioned in the above post. Did you know that these programs are out there?

 

I was at Southeast in Louisville 2 weeks ago and they were having a fill the baby bottle with change program that would result in buying supplies for mothers in low income situations that you mentioned above. Hear anything about that on the news on what he religious right is doing??

 

And BTW, I sin everyday too and any Christian will tell you the same thing. B is not limited to being a Christian that it is said but to people on the left side of the aisle too and C, yes it is along with the sins I battle with every single day.

Ladies how did you go to red so quick? I need to take a PC class.