1-Check swing with 2 strikes not caled by the plate ump.

2-Catcher drops ball, picks it up and throws down to first with the batter still standing in the box, apparently thinking he was not called for offering at the pitch.

3-First base ump calls him out...indicating that he did go around and the throw to first was an appeal.

 

Proper move would have been to ask the plate ump to get some help from the field ump as to did the batter go around but in high school ball you can go right to the base to appeal (such as leaving early or a missed base) but can you appeal a check swing this way also.

 

The out call by the base ump was reversed. What are your thoughts?

How could this be an appeal?

How could this be an appeal?

 

My thoughts are you don't have to go to the mound and tell the ump you are appealing that the runner misssed third, then throw over, for example so why can't you throw down to first in this instance to force the first base ump to make a call on the swing?

My thoughts are you don't have to go to the mound and tell the ump you are appealing that the runner misssed third, then throw over, for example so why can't you throw down to first in this instance to force the first base ump to make a call on the swing?

 

 

I "read up" on it and it seems that in high school , at least, there are "live appeals" that do not require anyone to verbally appeal. So, I guess I could see this as a "live appeal."

1-Check swing with 2 strikes not caled by the plate ump.

2-Catcher drops ball, picks it up and throws down to first with the batter still standing in the box, apparently thinking he was not called for offering at the pitch.

3-First base ump calls him out...indicating that he did go around and the throw to first was an appeal.

 

Proper move would have been to ask the plate ump to get some help from the field ump as to did the batter go around but in high school ball you can go right to the base to appeal (such as leaving early or a missed base) but can you appeal a check swing this way also.

 

The out call by the base ump was reversed. What are your thoughts?

First, lets talk a little baseball. Are these MLB rules or H.S. rules? In MLB, upon request from the catcher or manager, the UIC(plate) must check with a field umpire. There is no such rule in H.S. baseball. So, in theory, the plate man could be "sure' that he had it right, didn't feel the need to appeal, and can elect not to do so under H.S. rules.

 

Second, are you sure that the 1st base umpire was signaling BOTH that the batter had gone around and that he was out? Perhaps he assumed that the batter had gone, and was simply making a call on the throw for the dropped 3rd strike?

 

Third, the appeal that cshs is referring to is a "live ball" appeal, versus a dead ball appeal. There is no longer the need for throwing to a base to appeal a play. But this play doesn't even fall under that category, its not an appeal play. A live ball appeal is simply a verbal appeal while the ball is "live". In order to appeal something, you must state what your appealing, not just throw the ball to the base. I somehow doubt that the catcher got out "I'm appealing that he went around."

 

Finally, what should have happened is this:

 

Ball is thrown to base for possible dropped 3rd strike out. When the ball reaches the bag, base umpire does nothing. He then confers with the UIC, asking whether the batter went around, and whether he intended to check with him. If the UIC says, "I got it, he didn't go", we come out, bring the batter back to the plate, and go on. If he says, I was coming to you, the base umpire then makes the call on the check swing. If he determines the batter went around, he then makes a call on the dropped 3rd strike throw, verbalizing and explaining both if need be. Keep in mind that the UIC never appeals to a base on his own, he must be asked by the catcher to do so. So if the catcher never asked, there can't be an appeal, and therefore we've got nothing. Complicated, I know.

Unless he requests one of the base officials, the homeplate umpire determines whether a batter made an attempt at a ball, if he does not seek assistance, than no appeal on a swing attempt can be rendered.

 

The Umpire at first, should not have indicated it was an appeal and perhaps, he was only calling the batter/runner out, assuming the he thought the pitch was attempted at.

Third, the appeal that cshs is referring to is a "live ball" appeal, versus a dead ball appeal. There is no longer the need for throwing to a base to appeal a play. But this play doesn't even fall under that category, its not an appeal play. A live ball appeal is simply a verbal appeal while the ball is "live". In order to appeal something, you must state what your appealing, not just throw the ball to the base. I somehow doubt that the catcher got out "I'm appealing that he went around."

 

.

 

OR, from the umps I've talked to the appeal does not have to always be a verbal appeal. The scenario they gave me was this:

 

R1, R2, 1 out. BR hits a popup. IFF is called. R2 heads for 3rd before the ball is caught. F6 catches the ball, sees that R2 did not tag up/left too early and simply runs over and steps on the bag for the DP. I was told that, technically, there is an appeal that R2 left too early and since it was obvious to everyone that that was the case, F6 did not have to state something like "we appeal that he left too early."

 

Now, in the play described by DD, it would most certainly have to be a verbal appeal.

As far as I know (and as someone else stated) unless the plate umpire asks for help the base umpire should not rule on a swing. The plate umpire does not have to ask for help if he/she is sure of the call.

 

The base ump may have been issuing a ruling on if the ball beat the runner to first BUT IMVHO if the plate umpire ruled no swing it isn't an out and the batter is still up. If the base umpire ruled on the swing without being asked for help by the plate umpire (not the catcher or coach) then he did so incorrectly.

 

Also FWIW I don't think you would classify this type of a play as an appeal so it is not governed by the same rules. As far as I know an appeal applies to something done incorrectly by one team that must be brought to the attention of the umpires by the other team. A umpire does not call a runner out for missing a base unless the other team brings it to his/her attention first.

I umpired hs baseball for 24 years...so hopefully if anyone is still reading this thread it will shed some light on the issue:

 

1. The Plate Umpire is responsible for all calls at the plate..balls strikes, swing/no swing, etc. The catcher or coach may ask for an appeal to a properly positioned umpire but the umpire DOES NOT have to grant the request.

IF the batter checked his swing and the umpire did not come up and say "YES HE DID" or YES HE WENT", then the pitch is ruled a ball. The umpire should have clearly said "BALL" so the catcher would not have thrown the ball to 1st.

 

In any event, the fact that the umpire did not signal or call strike 3, this negates any calls that result from the play (Unless the catcher is attempting to throw out a runner on another base).

 

What should have occured in this instance: Home plate umpire calls time, advises 1st base umpire that the call was a ball, batter has a 1-2 count (or however many balls he has on him in the count) and the batter remains in the box.

 

If the field umpired signaled that he went (whether inadvertently or not), the call is overruled because the home plate umpire DID NOT seek assistance. Right or wrong (and I have had this happen many times) coaches can say what they want, but the plain fact is the HP Umpire has the authority of the game and if he says "Coach, in my judgment the batter did not take a swing at the pitch, I did not need any assistance, its my call, not the field umpire's" and that becomes the end of discussion.

 

The field umpire will then have a discussion with the HP umpire after the game to insure that he understands that he is NOT to make a call on a check swing without first being asked by the HP umpire.

If the field umpire was signaling "out" as a result of the throw, he must then confer with the HP umpire to get a ruling on what the HP umpire called. Based on that conversation the umpires will explain the ruling, clarify and answer questions and then move on.

 

KEEP IN MIND: In MLB & College, if players or coaches ask for an appeal on a check swing, it is automatically granted (at least in most college conferences. There are some conferences and divisions that do not stipulate it is an automatic grant by the umpire). However in high school, it is NOT automatic and is only given at the sole discretion of the HP umpire.

OR, from the umps I've talked to the appeal does not have to always be a verbal appeal. The scenario they gave me was this:

 

R1, R2, 1 out. BR hits a popup. IFF is called. R2 heads for 3rd before the ball is caught. F6 catches the ball, sees that R2 did not tag up/left too early and simply runs over and steps on the bag for the DP. I was told that, technically, there is an appeal that R2 left too early and since it was obvious to everyone that that was the case, F6 did not have to state something like "we appeal that he left too early."

 

Now, in the play described by DD, it would most certainly have to be a verbal appeal.

There is no "random appeal" anymore. It used to be that if a kid accidentally stepped on a base that the runner had missed, it was up to the umpire to call him out. Now you must specify exactly what it is you are appealing, verbally.

 

The situation you described isn't an appeal play, its a force out. There is no appeal on a runner who doesn't "attempt" to tag up. Its simply a DP. Not an appeal play IMO. I can see how you'd see it that way, but its not an appeal play, trust me on this one. :thumb:

I umpired hs baseball for 24 years...so hopefully if anyone is still reading this thread it will shed some light on the issue:

 

1. The Plate Umpire is responsible for all calls at the plate..balls strikes, swing/no swing, etc. The catcher or coach may ask for an appeal to a properly positioned umpire but the umpire DOES NOT have to grant the request.

IF the batter checked his swing and the umpire did not come up and say "YES HE DID" or YES HE WENT", then the pitch is ruled a ball. The umpire should have clearly said "BALL" so the catcher would not have thrown the ball to 1st.

 

In any event, the fact that the umpire did not signal or call strike 3, this negates any calls that result from the play (Unless the catcher is attempting to throw out a runner on another base).

 

What should have occured in this instance: Home plate umpire calls time, advises 1st base umpire that the call was a ball, batter has a 1-2 count (or however many balls he has on him in the count) and the batter remains in the box.

 

If the field umpired signaled that he went (whether inadvertently or not), the call is overruled because the home plate umpire DID NOT seek assistance. Right or wrong (and I have had this happen many times) coaches can say what they want, but the plain fact is the HP Umpire has the authority of the game and if he says "Coach, in my judgment the batter did not take a swing at the pitch, I did not need any assistance, its my call, not the field umpire's" and that becomes the end of discussion.

 

The field umpire will then have a discussion with the HP umpire after the game to insure that he understands that he is NOT to make a call on a check swing without first being asked by the HP umpire.

If the field umpire was signaling "out" as a result of the throw, he must then confer with the HP umpire to get a ruling on what the HP umpire called. Based on that conversation the umpires will explain the ruling, clarify and answer questions and then move on.

 

KEEP IN MIND: In MLB & College, if players or coaches ask for an appeal on a check swing, it is automatically granted (at least in most college conferences. There are some conferences and divisions that do not stipulate it is an automatic grant by the umpire). However in high school, it is NOT automatic and is only given at the sole discretion of the HP umpire.

On the money exactly, pretty much the same thing I was saying. And for the record, I agree, if you hear nothing it is always a "ball".

On the money exactly, pretty much the same thing I was saying. And for the record, I agree, if you hear nothing it is always a "ball".

 

For the record, the umpire crew did reverse the call, and as someone mentioned earlier, the base ump may have thought that the plate ump called the check swing a strike and was simply completing the play.

 

Heads up play by the catcher IMO. He may not have known what the call was either. The officials handled it great, a short conversation and a quick decision and back to play. They did a good job.