Why is there no stat for saves per game?

Why is there no stat for saves per game?

 

Because they are like assists in basketball (which are not listed on KHSAA, either).

 

Different people give saves different ways.

 

I was taught this more than a decade ago: If you're giving a keeper a save, he/she better leave his/her feet (or be on tiptoes with arms outstretched).

 

Another coach used this philosophy: If a defender could have kept the ball out of the goal, then no save (because defenders deflect shots -- which could/might have been on frame -- all the time).

 

By many accounts, though, if a keeper his hitting double-digit saves, than the defense needs some work.

 

Plus, you have this: Teams which get mercy ruled SHOULD lead the state in saves, because those teams give up a TON of shots on goal.

 

GKs from Trinity and SHA and St. X and Assumption should have FEWER saves than PRP, Eastern, etc., because those defenses (T, X, SHA,Assumption) are NOT going to get shot on as much as PRP and Eastern.

Thank you for explanation. It makes perfect sense. Your goalie should not HAVE to make double-digit saves. I just though it was curious that was not listed as a stat. I am assuming that would not be the best measure of goalie skill.

Thank you for explanation. It makes perfect sense. Your goalie should not HAVE to make double-digit saves. I just though it was curious that was not listed as a stat. I am assuming that would not be the best measure of goalie skill.

 

Save PERCENTAGE is better:

Saves

divided by

Saves + Goals Allowed

 

But it still comes back to people not having a set standard for saves.

 

Coming out to break up a 2-on-1 (intercept the pass) is NOT a save.

 

Punching out a corner kick or jumping to catch it is NOT a save (unless the player taking the corner kick MEANT to bend it in without anyone touching it).

 

Catching a ball coming right at you with little effort is NOT a save (because theoretically a defender staying on the line could deflect it, since the GK barely moved).

 

Catching an INdirect kick (ball kicked directly after foul with no one else tapping it) is NOT a save (because GK could have watched the ball fly into the net and it would NOT have counted because it was INdirect).

 

I'll routinely have a GK listed with like 5 or so saves and the team (plus the parents) will have the GK with like 10-15. I tell them if your GK ACTUALLY has that many saves, why are you whining to ME and NOT the defense that is feeding you to the wolves?

 

Tons and tons of saves are NOT good things. A lot of times, I won't even mention GK totals in stories because I think they're useless (like digs in volleyball; another stat people throw out there without knowing the boundaries of the stat).

 

I'll mention important saves (breakaways, PKs, etc.) or what the keeper did (saved 6-of-8 shots on frame) but simply mentioning total saves in general does NOT mean anything.

 

The Fort Knox goalkeeper could have 18 saves (and often does) against one of the Hardins, but if you still get beat 10-0 (the maximum after halftime), does it REALLY matter how many saves you have? In that case, you could have had 0 saves and the score would have roughly been the same.

The NCAA defines what they consider a save:

 

SECTION 6—GOALKEEPING

Article 1. A save is awarded to a goalkeeper only if a shot

otherwise would have gone into the goal. A goalkeeper can be

credited with a save without catching the ball. If the goalkeeper

blocks the ball or punches it wide or over the goal, that goalkeeper

can be credited with a save, provided the ball would

have otherwise gone into the goal. To receive a save, the play

must be a shot on goal. A goalkeeper cannot receive credit for a

save on a cross. (See exception in Section 3, Article 2.)

 

Source: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Soccer/2009ez.pdf

 

Per the above definition, most of Nathaniel Bryan's examples could or should be credited as saves. But I do agree with his sentiment that sometimes the number of saves doesn't tell the real story (I love the wolves comment). It doesn't describe "quality" shots. But this puts you on a slippery slope from a keeper's perspective. Take this situation, for example:

Catching a ball coming right at you with little effort is NOT a save.

If the keeper bobbles one of these and it crosses the goal line within the frame, is it not a goal? That's why it is a save, especially on a tore up grass field where the ball can take a crazy, unexpected bounce. Additionally, keepers will tell you they made the save look like "with little effort" because they were in the right position. Keeper trainers will repeatedly tell you to make the easy save, not to make it more complicated for fear of not actually making the save.

The NCAA defines what they consider a save:

 

SECTION 6—GOALKEEPING

Article 1. A save is awarded to a goalkeeper only if a shot

otherwise would have gone into the goal. A goalkeeper can be

credited with a save without catching the ball. If the goalkeeper

blocks the ball or punches it wide or over the goal, that goalkeeper

can be credited with a save, provided the ball would

have otherwise gone into the goal. To receive a save, the play

must be a shot on goal. A goalkeeper cannot receive credit for a

save on a cross. (See exception in Section 3, Article 2.)

 

Source: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_Manuals/Soccer/2009ez.pdf

 

Per the above definition, most of Nathaniel Bryan's examples could or should be credited as saves. But I do agree with his sentiment that sometimes the number of saves doesn't tell the real story (I love the wolves comment). It doesn't describe "quality" shots. But this puts you on a slippery slope from a keeper's perspective. Take this situation, for example:

Catching a ball coming right at you with little effort is NOT a save.

If the keeper bobbles one of these and it crosses the goal line within the frame, is it not a goal? That's why it is a save, especially on a tore up grass field where the ball can take a crazy, unexpected bounce. Additionally, keepers will tell you they made the save look like "with little effort" because they were in the right position. Keeper trainers will repeatedly tell you to make the easy save, not to make it more complicated for fear of not actually making the save.

 

I ADMIT I cost keepers save sometimes.

 

However, in the situation above, I think it is LESS about positioning and MORE about a striker taking a horrible shot.

 

Too many times I've seen someone in a shootout try to go in the middle -- and then the keeper might have to take one step -- because the striker does NOT want to try for the corner because he/she is afraid of going wide left or wide right.

 

But a ball shot from 40 that MIGHT have bounced in (if it had enough momentum) if the keeper didn't finally catch it I do have a hard time giving a save for.

 

For me, it's one of those things that you'll know it when you see it.

 

Or like you said above, it's about "quality" opportunities.

Mr. Bryan,

"I ADMIT I cost keepers save sometimes."

 

We can certainly agree that you can "run up the save tally" and never win a game.

 

Having played defender, and raising a house full of sweepers and a keeper, I'd love to officially instantiate the metric of "Blown Scoring Opportunity". A keeper or a defense makes 1 mistake, it can lead directly to a goal and a loss. The Dixie/Ryle game had 3 of those (2 PK's and a real close direct kick on a hard tackle). On the striker side, miss an open goal to score (perhaps kick a football field goal), and they slap their hands, say "oh shucks", and prepare for the ensuing goal kick. There were a handful of open/near open goal attempts in the last 10 minutes last's game as well that could have won it for Dixie or buried it for Ryle. Maybe I'm just a little off topic now.

 

So I believe the NCAA put out that guideline to try and take the subjectivity out of crediting a keeper with a save. But as you rightly point out, not all saves are equal. What would be worth more, 5 saves by either the Ryle or Dixie keepers, or say a Notre Dame keeper credited with 10 saves playing anyone else in the 35th district because all the opponent can do is play the ball in from 30 yards out due to NDA's stout defense?

"Not all saves are equal."

 

Good point. Great point actually.

 

Very rarely does Team A's defensive total (shots allowed, goals allowed, saves) equal Team B's offensive total (shots taken, goals scored, saves for opposing keeper).

 

Heck, go look at American football. Yardage is EASIER to determine that saves. It's clear, cut and dry.

 

Elizabethtown just beat Adair County in a top-10 battle of 3-A teams.

 

Elizabethtown's stats (per KHSAA):

435 Rushing Yards by Elizabethtown

8 Passing Yards by Elizabethtown

204 Rushing Yards by Adair

191 Passing Yards by Adair

 

Adair's stats (per KHSAA):

435 Rushing Yards by Elizabethtown

8 Passing Yards by Elizabethtown

214 Rushing Yards by Adair

211 Passing Yards by Adair

 

So Elizabethtown's numbers match up.

However, Adair says it is missing 10 rushing yards and 20 passing yards (30 total yards).

 

It's hard to get two teams on the same page and yardage is easy to count (as long as you don't have penalties).

 

Saves are more subjective.

What is this "American Football" you speak about?

What is this "American Football" you speak about?

 

:idunno:

Thank you all very much! I really appreciate the insight. This is my first go round with soccer stats. Seems absolutely logical that not all saves are equal. I was curious others thoughts so thank you.