Your understanding is correct. To be clear the pivot foot CAN be lifted. It just cannot come back down before the ball is released.

 

So when you hear someone yell "He lifted his pivot foot" that is legal. Otherwise all layups and jump shots would be a travel.

 

OK, help me out ... just so I'm interpreting this correctly ... if a player picks up her dribble in a stationary position, with her left foot clearly established as her pivot foot, and she's spinning all 360 degrees on her left foot looking for someone to which to pass to, she CAN then plant her right foot, lift her left and jump forward and pass it, as long as she releases it before her left foot comes back to the floor? I THINK that's what you're saying, but as I envision it, it looks really "illegal" (haha), and I know I've seen that called as traveling many times.

OK' date=' help me out ... just so I'm interpreting this correctly ... if a player picks up her dribble in a stationary position, with her left foot clearly established as her pivot foot, and she's spinning all 360 degrees on her left foot looking for someone to which to pass to, she CAN then plant her right foot, lift her left and jump forward and pass it, as long as she releases it before her left foot comes back to the floor? I THINK that's what you're saying, but as I envision it, it looks really "illegal" (haha), and I know I've seen that called as traveling many times.[/quote']

 

 

Legal.

Legal.

 

ok, thanks.

Well done Clyde….care to take on the "euro step" discussion ? :banana:

Well done Clyde….care to take on the "euro step" discussion ? :banana:

 

Actually, that was part of the reason for starting this thread. Euro steps are just lay ups with "angles" so discussing a legal lay up would include Euro step lay ups.

 

That being said, Clyde was very helpful in confirming what establishes a pivot foot, and what is allowed and not allowed in a lay up. After his and others input, I am even more sure than I was before that "euro steps" can be done, well within the legal parameters. I am also 100% sure that officials (at least in NKY girls high school basketball) will call a "euro step" lay up a walk/travel a large majority of the time, when it is not.

So we all agree the jump step is a travel and we should go back to calling it that way?Good.

 

Next, when the person is on the floor with the ball, and someone jumps on him physically, it is a foul?

 

/Misses the old dayz.

Jump STOP legal, Jump STEP travel

but as I envision it, it looks really "illegal" (haha), and I know I've seen that called as traveling many times.

 

I see that called traveling all the time as well - saw a few horendous traveling calls this weekend watching grade school games.

Actually, that was part of the reason for starting this thread. Euro steps are just lay ups with "angles" so discussing a legal lay up would include Euro step lay ups.

 

That being said, Clyde was very helpful in confirming what establishes a pivot foot, and what is allowed and not allowed in a lay up. After his and others input, I am even more sure than I was before that "euro steps" can be done, well within the legal parameters. I am also 100% sure that officials (at least in NKY girls high school basketball) will call a "euro step" lay up a walk/travel a large majority of the time, when it is not.

 

Can't say for sure what would be called, however, here is the problem with a "Euro Step".....if executed legally it is possible to not travel and complete this move. Many high schoolers and in particular girls are not able to execute this move legally because they drag their pivot foot through the step, hence the travel. The "Euro Step" requires a great deal of athleticism and it also requires the dribbler to 1) pick up their dribble on the correct foot to initially establish and 2) to step through the angle without dragging that pivot. So elevating to the basket while moving at a typically un-natural angle through the drive. Very few HS girls can execute and that being said, only some HS boys are able to execute without a violation.

 

What I am sure about is most coaches and parents are looking at the body of the dribbler and not the pivot foot or what it does during this manuever and so we get to add "that's a 'euro step' to the list of items called for, like "over the back"....

Can't say for sure what would be called, however, here is the problem with a "Euro Step".....if executed legally it is possible to not travel and complete this move. Many high schoolers and in particular girls are not able to execute this move legally because they drag their pivot foot through the step, hence the travel. The "Euro Step" requires a great deal of athleticism and it also requires the dribbler to 1) pick up their dribble on the correct foot to initially establish and 2) to step through the angle without dragging that pivot. So elevating to the basket while moving at a typically un-natural angle through the drive. Very few HS girls can execute and that being said, only some HS boys are able to execute without a violation.

 

What I am sure about is most coaches and parents are looking at the body of the dribbler and not the pivot foot or what it does during this manuever and so we get to add "that's a 'euro step' to the list of items called for, like "over the back"....

 

It is this bolded detail here that I asked specifically about a couple of times, if not more. I ended with this summary....the pivot foot is the first foot planted after picking up dribble.

 

This tells me that the dribble does not have to be picked up at the same time as planting what would be the pivot foot. The dribble could be picked up just before the pivot foot is planted.

 

Do you agree or disagree?

It is this bolded detail here that I asked specifically about a couple of times, if not more. I ended with this summary....the pivot foot is the first foot planted after picking up dribble.

 

This tells me that the dribble does not have to be picked up at the same time as planting what would be the pivot foot. The dribble could be picked up just before the pivot foot is planted.

 

Do you agree or disagree?

 

Correct, as in a jump stop

Correct, as in a jump stop

 

Got it. And the jump stop is a very good example.

 

I do understand your other point about dragging the pivot foot. If the pivot foot comes back into contact with the floor, after it has been lifted, and before the ball is released, then yes, it would be a travel. I can see how that could happen, certainly more so with the harder angles of a euro step.

Remember if you leave one and land 2 you can leave either.

I'm glad someone asked this question. My daughter had a horrible time 4 or 5 years ago when she was a sophomore in high school. She was taught the hop moves euro move and spin moves when she was 10 years old and used them a lot She was taught by a guy who worked the 5 star camps and one of the current best personal coaches in the state and Ganon Baker. They said the pivot foot is established when a foot hits the ground. If a player lands on both feet then either foot could be the pivot foot. I even asked a guy who had been a ref for 10 or 12 years. I asked because when I played in the 80s these moves were walks. All through middle school most of the time the refs called them a walk. We were told they would be legal when she played varsity. This was true her 8th and 9th grade years. They were not called walks. She played in Florida and missouri and those refs did not call them walks They were never called walks in aau ball.

 

Her sophomore year they were being called a walk every time Finally I had the high school coach email the head of the refs in our area. He said no hop move and spin move in which a player lands and then shoots can be done legally. Only a spin move or a hop move in which a player goes into the shot is legal. Also he said he did not know what the euro move was but it was probably illegal I saw the email and could not believe he actually stated he did not know the euro move. my daughter played in the 11th region

 

He said the pivot foot is established when the ball hits the players hand. So when that foot hits the ground it is a walk. According to this philosophy even a jump stop is a walk unless a player gets the foot or feet off the ground before the ball hits the hand. Nobody teaches this philosophy when teaching these moves. They are taught to take the ball off the bounce as close to the floor as possible all in one motion

 

When my daughter had the ball on the wing stationary she would step with her right foot bounce the ball as the ball comes off the floor she is pushing off the foot she stepped with and the ball would hit her hand as she pushed off. The stepping foot was on the ground when the ball hit her hand She would land on her left foot with the right foot landing going into a jump shot. This was never called a walk based on this philosophy it should have been a walk. The right foot(stepping foot) would have been the pivot foot and it hit the ground Same goes for the step out jump shot the ball almost always hits the hand while the stepping foot is on the ground but it was not called a walk. But if she was on the move the hop move and spin off 2 were always called a walk. Spin off 1 was legal

 

I went to a couple of boys games to see how they were being called they were not being called walks and they were doing the moves just like my daughter.

 

I talked to a ref who refs high school boys games and he said he only calls a walk on these moves if a player shuffles their feet or drags their feet or comes to a stop or almost to a stop. He considers them legal as long as they are done in one motion. The game has changed since the 80s and I agree with this philosophy

 

I have watched several womens college games over the past 2 years and it is 50/50 to being called a walk. I just saw a game at eku in which a girl did the hop off one which was not called a walk. A few minutes later she did a hop off 2 basically a jump stop and it was called a walk. Everybody in the stands and the opposing team agreed it was not a walk It would have not been called a walk for the men

 

I don't care if they are walks or not but it should be called the same for men and women more importantly there has to be some kind of understand among the refs so there is consistency it was not right for the girl in the eku game to be called for a walk one time and not the other. Either these moves were walks or not. To me it looks as if the refs are guessing to make the call or each ref has a different opinion on these moves.

 

Sorry for the rant.

I couldn't read that whole post due to my shortening attention span these days. However, I will say this. All jump stops are not legal. All also are not illegal.

 

The spin move is often a travel that goes uncalled since it happens so quickly. 99% of the spin moves, when watched on replay, are illegal.

 

Lastly, girls basketball has a higher occurrence of the perimeter player faking a jump shot and then traveling when attempting to go around the defender. Not sure why.

Do u agree with what was told to us that the no spin move or hop move that results in both feet being on the ground before the shot is a walk? I see it all the time in boys high school and men's college.

 

We were told no hop or spin move was legal if both feet are on the ground before shooting the ball after hopping or spinning because that means the pivot foot hit the ground which I agree with if the pivot foot is established when the ball hits the hand. Because kids take the ball off the bounce atleast one foot is almost always on the floor when they go into the hop or spin or step out which would result in the pivot foot hitting the floor