If Unions are an Evil Empire then what are the Koch Brothers?

[PurplePride92]

This is not the case for Unions like the UAW, which are the poster children for pricing jobs out of the country. The union has made it so the weakest, least healthy person must be able to do every job in the plant. Everyone must make the same base wage in the plant, which is $31.50 per hour. You can't get fired for being away from your post while on the clock until the 5th time you are caught. Each job has to be broken down to where it takes no skill to complete so it can fit the criteria mentioned above. How can anyone expect auto plants not to be opened across the border under these conditions. BTW, I think 60-70 is a good level for a line worker to retire at, but to start that high still seems excessive for the education level required. I also think out idea of a living wage is different. I think a living wage is one where you can afford a house and other items considered necessary in our country. However, combined incomes of over six figures is far and away upper middle class. Every worker in our country is simply not going to have those means. Companies can't stay competitive in a world economy providing that type of compensation. Like you said earlier, not everyone can be a mechanic. Not everyone can make that type of salary. The UAW seems to think differently. Of course, they don't believe the stockholders should keep the profit.

 

 

I tell you what, I've always had my thoughts about the Steelworkers but it seems I should be glad they aren't like the UAW.

[Larry Warner]

I tell you what, I've always had my thoughts about the Steelworkers but it seems I should be glad they aren't like the UAW.

 

I have a very good friend that works for Ford that has bragged to me about this. Of course, he would be bragging about at his house playing poker while he was still on the clock. This is one of the reasons that I was sick as a tax payer during the auto bailout. Although I knew it was necessary for our overall economy, I also knew many UAW employees would be getting what they had asked for if the big three went under. I know that you are a Union man, but that is my problem with Unions. They eliminate some of the employee competition within production sites. IMO, a poor employee doesn't deserve protection, and a good employee doesn't need any.

[doubledeuce]

I am not talking about supervisors who are members of the union. I am talking about non-union management. My point was that a job's pay should match the skill of the employee required to do the job. At least if you are in a trade union you have the skill of your trade. UAW employees have no marketable skill. They do a job that anyone off the street can be trained to do in a very short amount of time. Therefore, their wages should be in no way close to what they make. $45,000 a year is a very good paycheck for a line worker. As long as we think it is not, those jobs will continue to disappear in this country. How many Americans do you think would be very happy with $45 k a year right now??

 

This is not the case for Unions like the UAW, which are the poster children for pricing jobs out of the country. The union has made it so the weakest, least healthy person must be able to do every job in the plant. Everyone must make the same base wage in the plant, which is $31.50 per hour. You can't get fired for being away from your post while on the clock until the 5th time you are caught. Each job has to be broken down to where it takes no skill to complete so it can fit the criteria mentioned above. How can anyone expect auto plants not to be opened across the border under these conditions. BTW, I think 60-70 is a good level for a line worker to retire at, but to start that high still seems excessive for the education level required. I also think out idea of a living wage is different. I think a living wage is one where you can afford a house and other items considered necessary in our country. However, combined incomes of over six figures is far and away upper middle class. Every worker in our country is simply not going to have those means. Companies can't stay competitive in a world economy providing that type of compensation. Like you said earlier, not everyone can be a mechanic. Not everyone can make that type of salary. The UAW seems to think differently. Of course, they don't believe the stockholders should keep the profit.

 

 

One important thing to keep in mind with all the points you are making that are bad about the Union and UAW. The company agreed to them!! It is not like the Union walks in during negotiations and says this is how it is going to be and the company has ZERO choice!

 

 

The company chooses to break down the jobs in a factory setting how they want. They also break them down as simply and efficiently as possible to limit the time it takes to train workers to complete their task. And not to mention the simpler each task, "station," generally the better quality.

 

If you really want to use the UAW model you need to look at it from both sides. Toyota plant employees make the same if not more than UAW workers, yet they are profitable and a big big reason for that there is a lot, lot less management, corporate workers and overhead there compared to Ford or GM. If you also notice that the foreign carmakers are coming to the US and building their cars and paying Union scale.

[Larry Warner]

One important thing to keep in mind with all the points you are making that are bad about the Union and UAW. The company agreed to them!! It is not like the Union walks in during negotiations and says this is how it is going to be and the company has ZERO choice!

 

 

The company chooses to break down the jobs in a factory setting how they want. They also break them down as simply and efficiently as possible to limit the time it takes to train workers to complete their task. And not to mention the simpler each task, "station," generally the better quality.

 

If you really want to use the UAW model you need to look at it from both sides. Toyota plant employees make the same if not more than UAW workers, yet they are profitable and a big big reason for that there is a lot, lot less management, corporate workers and overhead there compared to Ford or GM. If you also notice that the foreign carmakers are coming to the US and building their cars and paying Union scale.

Toyota does not pay the same amount as the UAW. The UAW also has a tremendous amount of employees collecting huge pensions that are going to continue to do so until they die. I agree on the overhead aspect for certain. Does Toyota have a unionized lack of worker accountability. It took the UAW years to get the big three in the contract situation that they are in. What positive purpose does a union serve in situations like this? They certainly don't encourage labor competition. They certainly don't help a company maximize profit or product quality. They do maximize employee wages and benefits, often to the point of making it cheaper for the company to send the jobs out of country.

[doubledeuce]

Toyota does not pay the same amount as the UAW. The UAW also has a tremendous amount of employees collecting huge pensions that are going to continue to do so until they die. I agree on the overhead aspect for certain. Does Toyota have a unionized lack of worker accountability. It took the UAW years to get the big three in the contract situation that they are in. What positive purpose does a union serve in situations like this? They certainly don't encourage labor competition. They certainly don't help a company maximize profit or product quality. They do maximize employee wages and benefits, often to the point of making it cheaper for the company to send the jobs out of country.

 

They were within a dollar an hour when I worked there.

[Larry Warner]

They were within a dollar an hour when I worked there.

 

They pay a lower wage, they don't have the protection steps in place for employees violating company policy, and they don't have the monster pension payment to deal with.

[PurplePride92]

They pay a lower wage, they don't have the protection steps in place for employees violating company policy, and they don't have the monster pension payment to deal with.

 

That's not a good sell for a non union plant.

[Larry Warner]

That's not a good sell for a non union plant.

 

Why??? They are competitive in the market, their employees are making a good living, and their jobs aren't disappearing. I still don't see how an employee expects to have the things I mentioned above. They should expect to compete for their position, and their wage.

[PurplePride92]

Why??? They are competitive in the market, their employees are making a good living, and their jobs aren't disappearing. I still don't see how an employee expects to have the things I mentioned above. They should expect to compete for their position, and their wage.

 

Corning pays the highest wage in our area, we have a grievance process that allows due process for company violations, and a pension plan that is equal to the company's pension plan. Because of our union.