B-Ball-fan

From nky.com

http://news.nky.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080227/SPT0302/802270428/

I disagree with your assessment of the officiating, but I will limit my opinion to my vantage point. I did not perceive a great partiality, BUT I was not personally in a position to see the Lipscomb call. B-ball fan I have read enough of your posts and don't believe you have an agenda, so I'll respectfully disagree with your opinion about some blown calls.

 

I do not, however, think it was going to make the difference in the game, even if every single call had gone the Breds way. I understand your point about momentum shift and critical timing of the calls and all, but if the timing was really that critical to the outcome, NCC has to look at themselves and realize that they missed the opportunity to put Highlands in a deep, deep hole early on by not converting second chance opportunities and not defending McGraw better in the first quarter. Instead of playing neck and neck with Highlands the first half, NCC could easily have had an 8-10 point lead.

 

Again, I have always respected your input, but in this case the officiating wasn't going to make the difference. Moreover, I will always give the officials the benefit of the doubt - it is a truly tough and thankless job and I have never met one that does it for the money or because they have an agenda.

I'm cool with that. :thumb: I respect your opinion too and have dug your posts as well. And you're right. I don't have an agenda. Just pretty opinionated sometimes. I'll probably cool it now on the topic. I'd say I've done all the venting that I need to. Right or Wrong, thanks for hearing me out. :thumb:

I can see why no one would want to believe that a ref would do it, but they do. I can also see why no one would want to believe that there was such a thing as Operation Northwoods too, but there was. It didn't happen, but it was in the planning stages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

A ref doesn't have to do it the whole game. It only takes a few key minutes in a game to sway it until the damage is done and then they can just let it roll from there to keep it from being obvious.

Now you can all go ahead an call me a conspiracy theorist. It may not sound like an objective observation to most of you, but it does to me and I'm not saying that it happens all the time. Some bad calls are just flat out bad calls that can be attributed to human error. Some just can't be as easily defined as such.

Did you really think the officiating was THAT bad? Sure there were calls that could've been made but if you call everything in an HHS/NCC game, we'd still be there. There was some contact that Pangallo created that could've been called, there was some contact that Simpson created that could've been called. And, if the officials cost NCC this game, they also must've cost UK the game against Vandy...

 

On a side note, it was funny looking at NCC's bench to see 6 coaches and 6 players...

I don't think the refs had anything to do with this one, not a 20 pt margin? Lipscomb's charge was the correct call IMO. There are always questionable calls that's part of it. I do agree with NYRanger above wondering why you have shooters not getting shots off? Highlands defense was smart in letting the young Geisler (1 for??) and Pangallo(0 for??) shoot 3's. Lipscomb shot only 3X from the trey none off a back screen double screen ect.. all on his own and Connor while coming off the bench shot 2X once appearing to get fouled or losing the ball on the way up facing the same no screens anything. Would love to know what NCC shot % wise in the paint? NCC made a line up change that seemed to hurt them. Ollberding looked to be the main rebounder for the Breds but didn't play much? Highlands is capable of winning the 9th region with their physical play! Simpson isn't full strength yet and McGraw is flat out tough!

It turned into a blowout. It wasn't originally. I guess an argument could be made that if the Breds had anything in them they could rise above the stranglehold they were in. When the pendulum started to swing there was no turning back. It's hard to have that much mental strength when you're playing 5 against 8. Refs also know that 3rd period is a time for teams to make major adjustments, so if they want to sway the game they can hide behind that and say that it was all Birds in the 2nd half because of changes. I take nothing away from Willie and the boys because I respect him as a coach and think they have a great team. They probably would've won anyway, but I'd just like to see it done fairly. Is that too much to ask? The final score does not completely represent what a close game it was until the Twilight Zone started.

Don't know why the thuinder sticks weren't allowed. The students sure weren't harming anything having them.

I really liked the Birds student section. The sea of ghostly white was visually clever and a nice touch. I'm glad to see them come out in numbers to root on their mighty Bluebirds. :thumb:

With your knowledge of the game, it sounds as if you would be a GREAT official. So with that being said, all you need to do is to go to the KHSAA web-site or talk to a current official that you feel is a good(if you think that their are any) get your patch and have at it. If you choose not to do the above than I guess you have no issue.

 

As my momma always said, "if you can beat them, than join them", so with that being said sounds like it is time for you to join??

 

Good luck and hope see you on the floor next year:D

Next time you knock a public official, I suggest that you go run for office. I know as a ref it's not easy to please everyone. I just want to see a game called fairly. I don't see where pointing out observations of officiating calls for me or anyone to suit up. I'd just like to see the ones who do to be impartial about it. Besides, I already have a job.

I happened to sneak a picture of them at halftime..

 

I love this. :thumb: :lol:

Just so I didn't mistake what you are saying, is it your opinion then that the bad calls were not a result of the refs just not being good at their trade; rather that the bad calls were a result of all three of the refs intentionally making bad calls because they were impartial (i.e. they desired Highlands to win and thus cheated)? If so, any reason why the refs would be impartial towards the Birds?

That's exactly what I am saying and I think you're trying to say 'partial' every time you said 'impartial', but I think everyone knows what you were trying to say. I don't personally know the refs so I couldn't possibly know their reasons why. I believe that the Birds ultimately are a better team and that they'd go further into post-season play than NCC. If I could surmise, which would not be fair of me, I'm guessing that it's possible that they too want to see the best teams advance to better the chances of the 9th Region, aren't too wild about the blind draw, know that if they've got something to say about it they sure can have a voice and a hand in it to do so. I'd like to see the best teams advance too only if it doesn't leave a bad taste in the mouth and the winning team does so without any help. Ya gotta let it happen out on the court and not let your personal desires interfere with the outcome. That's probably asking too much of humans, but until we figure out how to have robots call the game, it would be nice if they would let the players decide the outcome themselves. Whether their actions were unintentional or blatant, I do not know. I just know that it smelled rotten to me. I don't think I'm pointing out anything here that hasn't happened before in the history of the game or any officiated sport. You just want the officials to be as impartial as possible. I don't know it anyone remembers Tommy Thompson, but that guy, human and all, called a game as straight as humanly possible. I'd like to see more callers like him. I could never detect from him at all who he might've wanted to win a game. Others seem to wear it on their sleeves and know that most people will say a fan is sour grapes if they protest. I'm a fan of the game though and wasn't rooting for any particular team. Refs have a hard time fooling guys like me. I guess you can say that when I go to a game I can impartially officiate the officials. Not my job, but I guess if there's anything I can say about it this is the best place to do it. Thank you BGP's for the opportunity to vent.

Sounds like you may have shown up hoping to vent on someone and found some referees to criticize. :banana:

 

The game turned into a blowout, refs don't do that, teams do. Whoever called this game is among the best in his association. Just like teams, referees don't work this late in the season unless they are proven to be above average. These are the facts.

 

But, if you think you're that much better than the guys calling tonight's game, go give it a shot next year. It's easy to do, take a test, attend a few classes and be good enough to move up the ladder. Sounds like you have the confidence, give it a shot.

A. I challenge you to find any previous posts of mine where I bash refs. It has never been my style. I'm just calling it like I see it. And, with me not rooting for any team in particular, I sure didn't enter the gym with any grudge. Just walked away disappointed that a game of this caliber would obviously be called in favor of one team. I like the Birds and think that McGraw is awesome. I wouldn't mind if they end up at Rupp because I think they're one of the best the 9th has to offer. The refs apparently like them and think so too.

B. It turned into a blowout. When the 2nd half started it was 8 guys against 5. It's kind of hard to go up against that. After the guys in stripes aided the momentum swing (and don't think that they don't know what a stranglehold they can have on a team by doing so), the Birds kept scoring (while committing their own overlooked errors), pushing what was a low scoring game out of reach. Sure they turned up the tempo, but who'd resist the opportunity to frazzle the other team when you've got some new buddies helping you along.

C. It's not a question to me of the refs abilities to call a game or whether I'd be better. I'm sure they know the game and can call it right if they could leave their own desires out of it. I'm questioning their ability to be FAIR. Do you think for one minute that there's no such thing as refs infecting a game to make the outcome favorable to them? I admire your innocent faith in them, but I'm just not that gullible. I'm wearing impartial glasses when I'm watching a game, so it's easier for me to see unfairness when it happens. In this game, my bull crap meter went off the charts. I guess my own rude awakening and loss of innocence is that if I walk into a game always expecting it to be called fairly, I'd be sadly mistaken to think every ref in the world is honorable enough to do so. I didn't walk into the gym with a grudge. I was naively taken off guard and walked away very disappointed. Disappointed for me having wanted to see a good competitive game and for the kids who came to play one and had to go up against much bigger odds than just the Bluebirds alone.

I honestly left early in the 4th period. I wasn't there to root for either team. I thought I'd see a good game. It was... until...WAY too many bad calls in succession took all the heart out of the game. These kids deserved better for all their hard work all season long than to have 'momentum swing games' being played by the judges. Did I just say that? Yes, I did. I've seen it many times before and I'm seeing it while rooting for no particular team. It was apparent that NCC was holding their own and even on an upswing with Libscomb back in the game, but nab him instantly with a terrible charging call and an awesome basket taken away in the process that led to ugly Bird missed walking calls left and right pushing the Birds to taking a 10 or so point lead to put it out of reach in a low scoring affair. Sure, Simpson and crew came out to play stronger in the 2nd half, but by the time all the blindness had subsided the damage was done. That's the vibe I got from the whole thing. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade. In an important game like this and mostly for the kids... as well as the 9th Region fans as a whole, they/we truly deserved better. :eek:

Good luck to the Bluebirds as they advance. I think you're a great TEAM!!!

Don't hang your heads Breds cause I know you came to play and did a darn good job. It's just too bad you had the wind taken out of your sails.

Back in the day...we had this little group supported by the administration called "Cheerleaders"? They went about the school raising awareness/spirit and getting the student body involved...pep rallies? Bon Fires? Posters throughout the school/locker room? Will the Pep Band be there? Will the "Dance team" be there? (they are worth the price of admission by themselves!) Hopefully the school is going ALL OUT for these two big contests! :banana:

Doesn't Highlands have cheerleaders anymore? :confused: It seems like I weaved through a flock of them at the door to find my seat at the Holmes/Highlands game. If they don't, what a loss that would be. They usually had, hands down, the prettiest bunch in the 9th Region. :thumb: And, as ear splitting as the band was it still was always pretty exciting to have them up in the balcony before/during the games. I litterally have taken ear plugs with me to save my hearing, but I still enjoyed the atmosphere they helped create. :thumb: Hope they all didn't forget what fun and excitement is. :ylsuper:

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Originally Posted by B-Ball-fan

The Birds will go deeper into post-season play though than NCC if they get past them,

I know that it sounds goofy, but I think the Birds would get the Breds 8 out of 10 games and can go further in post season play (as long as they stay healthy) than the Breds could. If the Breds beat the Birds on Monday they're beating the odds. Can't blame you for pointing out the obviousness of my comment though. Of course they go further if they win. If anyone didn't know all of this though, it sounds pretty illogical that if NCC were to win that they wouldn't have all that it takes as the Birds do to keeping moving along.

I'm probably making less sense now than before.

So how 'bout dem Red Colonels :thumb: I guess I don't have a snowball's chance finding out how they played. Considering that they won, I'm going to assume they played well as a TEAM, but I was kind of looking for a few minor details like who their high scorer was. Little things like that. Did any of the Boone supporters see anything in this game other than the scoreboard and their precious Rebels leaving the floor with bowed heads? I'm thinking that since they won that there's something about their performance they might've been notibly relevant and memorable. Something? Anything? Let me help. Were there any guys on the court named Mace (Real big guy,might've dunked it a couple of times), Kendall, Lawson? Ring any bells? Oh nevermind. Maybe by the Regional Tournament these players will re-remind you of who they were and why they're advancing and Boone isn't.

I probably get more excited for a successful Bluebird team than the student body does and I didn't even go to school there. That's O.K. if they don't show up, then maybe I'll get inside the gym Monday night before they start turning people away. I've always liked NCC too, so I'm just looking forward to a real good game. The Birds will go deeper into post-season play though than NCC if they get past them, so I ultimately would like to see Highlands take it, but not without a tough battle first :thumb:

You gotta wonder what criteria they use to decide on POY, but you've got to admit, no matter the reason, there's nobody dropping in his kind of numbers night after night no matter who HC is playing. So what if a couple teams have limited him this year, there's no denying that he is one consistent player that sure knows how to light it up better and more consistently than most. Sure there's a couple of great contenders for the prize (Henderson, McGraw), but I'm putting my money on Sorrell in a game of H.O.R.S.E. any day. :thumb:

Didn't Dixie play Boone last night? I think that I heard they beat'em. Didn't hear much about how Dixie's players did though because all I keep hearing about is Boone, Boone, Boone.

Is there anything anyone can add like... ahhh ... who played for Dixie and who were their contributers? Stuff like that.

According to the scoreboard. Anyone have any details?

 

Very suprised by this score.

If Kyle Kendall is back I wouldn't be surprised. With him, Dixie's a tough team. I wonder if he played or not? :confused:

Lest we not forget Latin school greats Jeff Stowers had a heckuva career at NKU; much less Brian O'conner Thomas More, age 16, drafted by the NY Knicks and played in the CBA.

I wonder where Latin considers their home games to be now. I know that many years ago they only scheduled a few home games a year and those games were played at CovCath. I'm talking about 1975. In recent years, I'm not sure. :confused:

Lest we not forget Latin school greats Jeff Stowers had a heckuva career at NKU; much less Brian O'conner Thomas More, age 16, drafted by the NY Knicks and played in the CBA.

Brian O'Conner? I remember hearing the name years ago but am really foggy about who he is. :confused: When do you think he would've been playing for Latin? I had neighbors as a kid who played for Latin and I'm sure I remember them talking about him. I just can't put a face with him. It seems like in the early 70's Latin briefly had a fairly decent competitive team coached by Fr. Ed Hielie (sp?) about the time Jeff Stowers was there. I always get the facts behind Stowers messed up but I'm thinking that he played at Latin as a junior, transferred as a senior to play football at CovCath, but ended up inelligible or something like that. Any Latin history that anyone can throw out there would be great. I always thought that it was pretty amazing when they did have decent players/ and or team when they were always younger than their opponents. I always thought that if would be something if they ever really got over the hump one year and put a winning team on the court that beat all the odds. Latin is an interesting footnote if 9th Region history. I wonder if they'll ever get back to district play?

I should have started this thread as 'Greatest 9th Region Team Ever & Forgotten Greats. I guess both threads pretty much could be thrown into the same stew because both have extremely simlilar discussions. Wonder if they could be combined somehow by a mod if it doesn't complicate anything. :confused:

Newport with Mayes, David Simpson, Kenny Bell, NewCath with Larry Redmon, Moeves at Boone, there was a good group in Ninth Region in 81.

 

But, with all due respect to the mythical 81 Simon Kenton Pioneers (and I know I'm gonna get beat up for this opinion), if you could go back to the day before the state tournament started in 1981, nobody was predicting that that team was going to one day be heralded as the best from northern Kentucky, or that the Ninth Region was particularly strong that year. If the ONLY criterion you use is what team won a state championship, then obviously 81 SK is the best team ever. But if you use ANY OTHER CRITERIA - dominance in northern Kentucky, consistency, even talent as measured by college recruiters, 1981 is a pretty mediocre year, particularly if you take out one week in March. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that they brought home a state title to N.Ky., and they get a lot of credit for being the only squad that's ever been able to do that, but I don't think that that automatically defines them as the best team in the history of N.Ky. or that as the best year for the Ninth Region. To prove my point, they obviously didn't dominate northern Kentucky the way a lot of other teams have, and, prior to the state tournament there was no significant Div 1 attention to anyone, even McKinley (see Ryan Ernst's column from last week). They had a great run in the state tournament, and beat a very good Moore team with an All-American, but that one week shouldn't really change who that team was or what the quality of the play by Simon Kenton, or in the Ninth Region as a whole, was for that year. Remember, as juniors the SK team was blown out by Dicky Beal's and Holmes - I think if we were being honest, for anyone that saw any of those games would not have come away thinking "those guys are good - they're just a year away from winning the state". It's impossible to fully compare teams from different years, but my bet would be that anyone that played against the 80 Holmes team and 81 Simon Kenton team would have chosen to play Simon Kenton.

 

Overall, if you're gonna take the Ninth Region from top to bottom, I think you gotta go with a year like 2003, when you had three Div 1's, two of whom were big time Div 1, and another outstanding team that won the region. I could be wrong about this, but I think prior to the 81 state tournament the only D1 interest in anybody was Turney at CovCath, and that was Marshall. Compare that to Brock (EKU), Neltner (LSU) and Doellman (Xavier), and all three failed to win the region. My point is just because Simon Kenton won the state in 81 doesn't, in my opinion, make them the best team or 81 the best year ever from N.Ky. - a blown call in 78 and a last second bomb in 67 do not make the difference between the greatest team ever and all the rest. As a northern Kentuckian, I appreciate the magnitude of the 81 state championship, but it shouldn't diminish the accomplishments of other great teams and players that, on every other level and by any other measure other than winning the final game, were superior.

 

That's just my opinion, so bring it on everybody that thinks its sour grapes. For the record, it isn't - I give props to 81 SK for doing a feat that no other team has been able to pull off. I just don't think looking through the prism of the state championship should change everything else. Just because Simon Kenton got hot and won the state does not, in my opinion, elevate an otherwise pretty mediocre year in Ninth Region basketball from top to bottom.

Interesting read. I too recall feeling back in 81 that the 9th Region was in a down year, and after Beal was gone, thought that any strong chances for any impact at the state tournament were years away. I remember being wooed by McKinley's shooting and that the Pioneers had a tall team, but I would have never guessed that year headed to Rupp, that they were going to go all the way. That made it even more exciting for me considering when in earlier years I thought for certain that Holmes would be the team to do it. I had pretty much given up hope when the 81 season had rolled around. It really is a nice cinderella story, but in hindsight I also lean towards thinking that we really didn't know what we had and that they actually were a pretty darn good team that worked hard to improve, played with a ton of spirit, and peaked at the right time with some really decent players. Can't say if they were the best team ever, but they ended up amounting to a whole lot and created one of the fondest memories that the 9th Region has ever experienced. But it sure did sneak up on us. Who would've thunk it. :thumb:

Go Pioneers!!! :thumb:

One of my most vivid 9th region tourney memories:

 

About 1974 or 1975 - NC vs Holmes - Region at Conner. Holmes had Ricky Waller. I was sitting behind the Holmes bench. A Holmes player fouled out and came to the bench . A fan walked down behind him and appeared to hit him in the head or flick him in the ear. A huge melee broke out with all kinds of people on the floor.

 

Anyone remember that semi-finals game?

My memory is a bit foggy about this but I'm thinking that this Regional at Conner was my first ever. If this is the one where Holy Cross and Holmes were in the finals I believe that it is. I would've been about 11 and I remember feeling like I was at a pro game because it felt so big time. I have to believe that that's when the addiction bug first took place. If anyone remembers the exact year and who the players were for the Indians and the Bulldogs, that would be great. I'd love to have it all come flooding back to me. 1975 does sound right or was it 1976? Did HC have a player named Brian Reiger back then or was that a different year? I'd love to reconnect the dots to that exact year because that's where it really all began for me. My older brother had me curious earlier on, but that's when I remember really getting in to it. I'm also thinking that Holy Cross took the district that year and Holmes won region perhaps? :confused:

Does WV have their whole team back?

Is it just me or does anyone else think that they way most uniforms are designed nowadays are just sloppy? After every play, the players have to keep tucking or else half of the shirt is hanging out. Even all the way out doesn't look as crappy as partly in/partly out does, which is how it looks most of the time. If I were a player, I think that it would drive me crazy to constantly be fussing with my uniform. I'm all for the players looking respectable, but since the longer shorts have come into basketball, I think it would probably look better for the shirts to be designed to hang out, but with taste. When the shorts were short it might've looked dumb for the shirt to be hanging out, but with longer shorts I think it can be done more easily and still look good. I bet that the players would like it that way too.

It wasn't Jordan Stowers, but Evan Stowers who was on the '03 SK team. Evan was a junior that year. Joseph Nevels was there other starting guard.

Wow, you are right. I forgot all about there being 3 of them in recent years. I think Brandon, Jordon and as you pointed out... Evan. I feel bad that I forgot him. Wasn't he a mighty fine diver? That wasn't even that long ago. Where is my mind? :confused: