When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the LORD your God. (NRSV, Leviticus 19:9-10)

 

He who despises his neighbor sins, but happy is he who is gracious to the poor. (NAS, Proverbs 14:21)

 

"Feed the hungry! Help those in trouble! Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you shall be as bright as day. And the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy you with all good things, and keep you healthy too; and you will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring. (TLB, Isaiah 58:10-11)

 

And the crowds asked [John the Baptist], "What then should we do?" In reply he said to them, "Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise." (NRSV, Luke 3:10-11)

 

But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? (NAS, 1 John 3:17)

 

He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses. (NAS, Proverbs 28:27)

What is your point Ace?

My point is that there is so much scripture warning about the accumulation of wealth and material goods and the fact that if we have them we better be sharing, that it is kind of silly then to surmise that the Lord "blesses" me with a Volvo - which is an exact example from my sunday school class from about 10years ago.

 

A blessing seems to imply - although not necessarily - that something was earned. Unhealthy religion teaches that if I am following God then good things will happen to me - which is blatantly untrue.

 

While I think God is involved in my life, it is my belief that the involvement is primarily spiritual/soulful to help me get through situations that are painful, or tempting me to move away from God.

 

The Bible speaks specifically about God not putting temptations in front of us so why would anyone want to preach any kind of prosperity gospel. Wealth is nothing but temptation.

 

If material goods and financial security were the 'blessings' of God, then God is good to everyone so no one would be poor - except for the capital S - Sinners.

 

Someone asked earlier why I don't allow my children to be poor - well not knowing my socio-economic status how would you know that I don't. But given that you could wager a guess, I would say it is because that I am weak - simple as that. My family could certainly live more simply and give more of our stuff and ourselves to other people. But because I am a struggling Christian we don't.

My point is that there is so much scripture warning about the accumulation of wealth and material goods and the fact that if we have them we better be sharing, that it is kind of silly then to surmise that the Lord "blesses" me with a Volvo - which is an exact example from my sunday school class from about 10years ago.

IMO, it's not so much that we may have it, but more about the why and how we get it and what we do with it once we have it.

 

There are numerous verses warning against the consumption of too much wine resulting in drunkenness. BUT, there are also many verses in which wine is accounted as a blessing from God. It could be argued that Jesus’ first miracle was that of blessing the wedding party with wine he’d transformed from jars of water. It certainly made His mother and the host of the banquet happy.

 

The principle here is not the acquisition or possession of wine, money or other material goods, but the proper use of these blessings. The abuses of excess are just as damaging as not having any at all… albeit for different reasons.

 

As far as a Volvo or any other material possession goes, if we’re gonna have them anyway, are you suggesting that it is better to thank ourselves, our hard work and “making our own luck” for “earning” a new car rather than being grateful to God?

A blessing seems to imply - although not necessarily - that something was earned.

I disagree. The implication of a blessing in my understanding and experience is that of a gift from a giver… whether earned, or merely at the mercy, kindness, generosity and good graces of the giver. Otherwise, why would I be compelled to be thankful to anyone but myself and my hard work?

Unhealthy religion teaches that if I am following God then good things will happen to me - which is blatantly untrue.

Are you implying that Judiasm as attributed to God’s own words and promises of blessing in exchange for obedience in Deuteronomy 28: 1-13 and many other passages in the Old Testament are “unhealthy” and a lie (or “blatantly untrue” to use your exact wording)??? Why would God make things so difficult – it not impossible – for us to understand?

While I think God is involved in my life, it is my belief that the involvement is primarily spiritual/soulful to help me get through situations that are painful, or tempting me to move away from God.

I will not deny the vastness and importance of God’s interaction with us on a spiritual level, but that does nothing in my mind to diminish His activity in the physical/material as well. This is not an either-or proposition to me, but a spiritual AND physical connection. Why did Jesus have to be born in human form, live and walk among us in the flesh if God is not concerned with us on a physical/material level as well as the spiritual?

The Bible speaks specifically about God not putting temptations in front of us so why would anyone want to preach any kind of prosperity gospel. Wealth is nothing but temptation.

I don’t preach prosperity gospel… any more than I preach poverty gospel. The book I read says “the LOVE of MONEY is the root of evil”. It says nothing about money itself being evil. God does not tempt us, nor can He be tempted. We do have a tempter however, that has been twisting the blessings of God into sinful abuses for millennia. All the more reason to press into God and be obedient to Him.

If material goods and financial security were the 'blessings' of God, then God is good to everyone so no one would be poor - except for the capital S - Sinners.

Matthew 5:45 "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. " No offense, but I prefer to accept God on His terms, not by the understanding or definitions of fellow sinners... :lol:

Someone asked earlier why I don't allow my children to be poor - well not knowing my socio-economic status how would you know that I don't. But given that you could wager a guess, I would say it is because that I am weak - simple as that. My family could certainly live more simply and give more of our stuff and ourselves to other people. But because I am a struggling Christian we don't.

I asked that question. It is assumed by Jesus Himself that as loving parents, we desire to give our children good gifts. If this is our desire, and you genuinely believe that poverty is the highest state of blessing… why do you knock your tail off to provide a home, food, transportation, entertainment, etc. rather than chucking it all and becoming vagrants in the name of Christ? You ask how I know… you are making these posts on a computer, powered by electricity, paid for by a job, etc. I don’t see this a weakness but the provision and blessing of God… but you’re certainly welcome to interpret this however you choose.

 

Matthew 7: 8-12 “For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

Unhealthy religion teaches that if I am following God then good things will happen to me - which is blatantly untrue.

Not trying to pile on, and maybe I'm missing your point, but I genuinely cannot comprehend how you reconcile this assertion (as worded above) with teachings like Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Not trying to pile on, and maybe I'm missing your point, but I genuinely cannot comprehend how you reconcile this assertion (as worded above) with teachings like Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

 

A Volvo is not an reward. Consolation during my time of suffering is a reward, comfort during times of pain is a reward. Being a millionaire is not a reward.

 

By the way, I was saying nothing of Judaism, I was speaking of the unhealth religion that says God gives good Christians material things and sinners suffer. That is simply untrue.

 

FWIW you quoted little if any from the teaching of Jesus - what did he tell his closes followers about their lives and what would come to them for following him? If we are to strive to be like Jesus - we would see that he did not pursue material wealth, not even having a place of his own to lay his head. The early church held their property in common. There is no example of any of Jesus' followers pursuing wealth. So, Jesus did not pursue wealth and his disciples did not pursue wealth and we are to model our lives after them. What does that say to us.

A Volvo is not an reward. Consolation during my time of suffering is a reward, comfort during times of pain is a reward. Being a millionaire is not a reward.

 

By the way, I was saying nothing of Judaism, I was speaking of the unhealth religion that says God gives good Christians material things and sinners suffer. That is simply untrue.

 

FWIW you quoted little if any from the teaching of Jesus - what did he tell his closes followers about their lives and what would come to them for following him? If we are to strive to be like Jesus - we would see that he did not pursue material wealth, not even having a place of his own to lay his head. The early church held their property in common. There is no example of any of Jesus' followers pursuing wealth. So, Jesus did not pursue wealth and his disciples did not pursue wealth and we are to model our lives after them. What does that say to us.

I understand your convictions on this matter, and I agree that most Christians in our time, place and culture struggle to be true to the simplicity of the calling and example of Jesus Christ. I confess that I have struggled with the tug of personal gain and materialism. I have however, found Jesus' words, "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." to be very true in my life. I have learned to, as Paul teaches, "be content in all circumstances." I do not pursue fabulous wealth. My security is in God, not in my abilities, amount of stuff or bank account. In this regard, I am thankful to Him for the cup of coffee I just enjoyed, the smile my wife just blessed me with, the computer in my lap I am typing this message on, every breath I will take today and the fact that I am blessed to live in the one of the most blessed nations in the history of the world. I cannot explain why I ended up here and not in Haiti, or Rwanda or Medieval Europe for that matter. I do believe I am here because God willed it to be so. If that makes some uncomfortable, or to think I'm a fool... I'm okay with that.

 

I spent the first 19 years of my life placing limits on God... essentially trying to stuff Him in a box... trying to tame Him into something I could understand and be more comfortable with. I didn't realize that is what I was doing... but that is exactly what was going on. When the foolishness of all this came to my attention, I had to learn how to trust someone infinitely beyond my limited mind and faith. It's been a wild ride. It's been awesome. I only want to be closer to Him.

 

If that level of gratitude to God is over the top to some of you... I'm okay with that too. I know from whom my blessings flow, and that I am nothing (worthwhile) apart from God. I can't explain why God loves me... much less attempt to explain why horrible things happen around the world. I just know I am here, now, for a reason... the fact that I am IMO so blessed is not because I have earned it... if anything, I am humbled to realize I need to be doing more for others, more for God's kingdom because of these blessings.

 

This has given me much to think about. :thumb: