UndertheLights, KyFedUmp, or anyone else who can help:

 

My brother called me in a state of panic yesterday from Tennesee. His team was playing a tournament and in a very close game when an unusual play happened and wanted to know if he should pay his $50 protest fee. He ultiamtely did not because I wasn't 100% certain of NFHS rules - which they were playing. His team ended up winning in extra innings.

 

Here's the play: Men on 2B and 3B, 1 out. Batter hits fly ball in gap. 2B runner takes off, 3B runner holds. OF'er makes nice diving catch. 3B runner tags up appropriately. 2B runner now has to scramble back to 2B. OF throws home but they can't get 3B runner, but INF sees 2B runner hasn't gotten back and throws to 2B and doubles him up. There is no question the 3B runner crossed the plate before the 3rd out (runner doubled up) was recorded. Umpire would not allow run. Brother thinks it should count and calls me up.

 

In know 100% that in OBR this runs counts. It is NOT a force play, as force outs can only occur on runners trying to ADVANCE, not runners who are returning/retreating. So it becomes simply a "put out", and more importantly, a timing play, so that if a runs scores before the out, it counts. (OBR 2.00, Definition of "Force Play" - it actually gives an example of this exact same play as an example of what is NOT a force play).

 

I did not think NFHS would differ, but didn't have my rulebook with me, so I couldn't be 100% sure. I have now gone through it very closely and see nothing that would change this ruling in my mind. I'd like some umpires' take on it and, if possible, please give rulebook cites.

I wouldn't think that rule would change - it's basically a baseball rule...but that doesn't really help you any. Sorry haha

I've been involved in the game for all me life, and umpired for 5 now. I would ASSUME that the run WOULD still count. Only because of the difference between a put out and force out involved in the play. I will try to get a hold of Randy Marsh as I kind of know him through a friend and have recieved his help on calls in question in the past. It may be a while before I get back though Mr. Marsh is a busy busy man this time of year.

I've been involved in the game for all me life, and umpired for 5 now. I would ASSUME that the run WOULD still count. Only because of the difference between a put out and force out involved in the play. I will try to get a hold of Randy Marsh as I kind of know hil through a friend and have recieved his help on calls in question in the past. It may be a while before I get back though Mr. Marsh is a busy busy man this time of year.

 

Thanks. :thumb: Please keep in mind that I am looking for the NFHS ruling, not OBR (I already know that one).

Yeah, I think we all know that the run does count according to Randy Marsh

Thanks. :thumb: Please keep in mind that I am looking for the NFHS ruling, not OBR (I already know that one).

 

O yeah I got all caught up in the question and kinda forgot that important info.:idunno: I'll see what I can find out about the NFHS ruling although I'd imagine it'd be the same. It seems more like one of those official rules that can't vary to me.:thumb:

Just sent an e mail to the NFHS. If they fet back to me I'll fill you guys in.

I checked with a couple of high school umpires and they all said it should count. One did say that some umps get confused on this and consider it a "force play."

Just sent an e mail to the NFHS. If they fet back to me I'll fill you guys in.

 

And, if possible, could you provide the cite reference in the NFHS rulebook? Not asking for much, huh?

 

Thanks! :thumb:

I checked with a couple of high school umpires and they all said it should count. One did say that some umps get confused on this and consider it a "force play."

 

Most of the changes between NFHS and OBR have to do with illegal pitches/balks, re-entry/substitution, and courtesy runners. That would be a fairly significant change to a rule of baseball, so that's why I felt comfortable telling my brother to spend the $50. That, and the fact that it wasn't my $50.

Run counts

I will be interested to here the verdict when it comes back. I was at a minor league ballgame some years ago and a very similar play happened. The umpires did not allow the run. I know there are some differences between pro and high school ball, but I would think this one would be the same, and am curious if those umps got it wrong.

 

By the way, didn't something weird like this happen in a Dodgers game this year. I don't know the details, but I do remember the Dodgers getting the run.

This just happened in an MLB game recently. It's pretty much an across the board rule in baseball - it's a timing play, the run counts.

And, if possible, could you provide the cite reference in the NFHS rulebook? Not asking for much, huh?

 

Thanks! :thumb:

 

 

Coop,

A return to tag up is a timing play and the run should have counted provided that the runner touched the plate before the out was recorded.

He should have protested. :eyeonyou: I hate to say this but....this is why it would pay coaches to learn the rules so that you will KNOW when to protest (when protests are allowed).

 

BTW, the rule book reference for NFHS is 8-2-6-k (Third out baserunning infraction). The rule states when a run DOES NOT score. Any other situation would score the run(s).

NFHS Rule 8-2 Article 6k

 

If a baserunning infraction is the third out, runs scored by the following runners would not count. With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was FORCED to advance, no runs would score.

 

8-2 Article 6h

 

Tag Ups - If a runner leaves a base too soon on a caught fly ball and returns in an attempt to retag, this is considered a time play and not a force out. If the appeal is the third out, all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal WOULD count.

 

Hope that helps.