acemona

Yes I do, and I will list the things if you so choose - do I do enough, not nearly - do I think our country/world would be better off if we expanded our notion of values votes and created policies that helped the poor YOU BET.

That is my whole point. I am pro-choice and pro-healthcare for committed couples. I am also anti poverty and anti-suffering a pro-health care for all people. The latter three, you would think, are christian priorities, yet people will say I don't have good values b/c I don't support politicians who are pro-life and anti-gay marriage. I simply believe there are more values than those and the Christian right should stop telling the general public that b/c I am a liberal that I don't have values. We should expand the definition of what Values Voting is and all Christians should look at the policies created by our government to see who they harm and who they benefit.

It is hypocritical if you feel free to use the government to cure some social ills, but suggest that you cannot use it to cure others. I think the government can do a lot to cure the ills of the 46 million children without health care, so I will cast my votes for the politicians that want to help the children who are here. I will also cast votes for those who work to reduce the conditions that lead to abotion - better quality pre-natal care for poor women, work against systemic poverty, etc...

This suggests that the injustices perpetrated upon the 14 year old had nothing to do with his actions. Have you ever been truly poor, or hungry, or unloved? Any of those things might cause you to do things that you would normally not do. Have you seen Les Miserables?

This is what I don't understand . . . you want the government tofix the abortion problem, but you don't want it to fix the hunger problem. There is scripture that refers to JC and the unrelenting hound. if you were the parent of an unloving child, when would you give up on the child and ultimately turn your back on them. i would say never. So God, who loves us much more than we can love our children, will never relent and will constantly be striving to win our affection.

Not sure that I believe in an Historical Sodom and Gomorra. Paints too ugly of a picture of God that I have seen through JC

Maslow will tell you that a person who is hungry cannot come to know JC b/c that would require some self-actualization and a truly hungry person cannot meet that aspiration. So all fetuses destroyed during abortions are in Hell? WOW What an awesome God who is full of love and forgiveness?? (SARCASM that was hard for me to write) How do you know that a dead person cannot come to know Jesus? Does the scripture say that somewhere?

Holy Cow, such contradictions from other posts - then why vote values at all. The church should stop abortions too - why leave that to the government.

Would Jesus have dropped the atomic bomb? JFTR - The dropping of the second bomb was really not necessary to end the war with Japan, it was done as a deterrent to the Russians to show what kind of force we had - kind of breaks your heart doesn't it, but that is another thread.

However, they may be completely correct if you vote Strict Conservative and use Abortion as a litmus test. Are these not Republican issues?

JC - "You have heard it said an eye for an eye but I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons (and daughters) of you father in heaven." Matt. 4:38 -45a JC fulfilled the law and said if you want to keep all of the commandments 'love God and love your neighbor.' Not much room in here for killing innocent Iraqi civilians or even Iraqi soldiers for that matter. Just so we have the FOX facts straight the Iraqis flew no planes into no part of the US - the terrorists were primarily Saudis (whom we will certainly not attack).

There are over 2000 scriptures in the Bible that deal with the poor. Jesus even said that "I am come to bring good news to the poor." Shouldn't eliminating poverty and economic injustice created by our system be THE #1 issue in the voting minds of Christians?

Do you vote your faith when you vote pro-life but also vote for the same candidate who is for tax cuts and budget policies that leave 46 million AMERICAN children without adequate health insurance? Do you vote your faith when you vote pro-life but also vote for the same candidate who is for the death penalty? Do you vote your faith when you vote pro-life but also vote for the same candidate who supports the war in Iraq where 2660 innocent Iraqi civilians were killed THIS MONTH are those civilians not God's creation, regardless of their beliefs? Are these not also Christian/non-Christian issues? Why vote on just two (I am assuming the other is same sex marriage)

YOU see it that way, but if the country is split - why should one half have to live the way you tell them? If you think it is murder don't do it . . . Just a really tought issue.

Why then do many people in the general population think it is murder. Who has told them that it was? If the medical community is split, why would we want to legislate the practice? Those who "think" it is murder would not perform the procedure, and those who do not "think" it is murder would?

i guess the biggest concern is deciding when it started

That would be the only reason for outlawing it I would think? Would it not?

i got it on the partial birth, but what about the first 24 weeks. Thank your for the non-snide reply. If it is well understood that that it is murder, then why sooo many doctors? Are they all just stupid idiots that want the money, and why are they not prosecuted?

What group has decided (with a medical certainty) that Abortion is murder? Does the AMA have a stance on it?

Well certainly - I could have picked more conservative views but I went with things that I thought most would consider at the very least "wrong", however, I did not know that collecting a fee for services (Taxes) was steeling. I should prosecute all lawyers and doctors for stealing b/c of the fees they collect. The point is that you can allow an institution to commit wrongs for you and by not working to change it . . . society suffers and thus punishment is so rendered

Let's move away from the abortion issue - you see, with that argument there are some who think it is a sin and others who do not so there is legitimate disagreement - however . . . Did the goverment under Hitler sin? Yes Did the government under Hussein sin? Yes Does our government/society sin when we establish policies and institutions that allow 46 million children to go without adequate health care? Yes Will I be held accountable for that? Yes, based on what I did/do to change the system. Did the government sin when it SUPPORTED segregated facilities based on race? Yes Does our government sin when it continues to devise policies that allow the wealthy to become more wealthy while allowing the suffering to continue to suffer? YES

It is just awfully hard to reconcil the "God" of the Old Testatment, with the "God" that Jesus teaches about in the new. If I read the Old Testament through the life of Jesus, I have to assume that some of the stories are just that - stories - to teach me about some important issue, but not for me to take a historical fact

I agree, the church has acquiessed (sp) a great deal, but the Bible does not allow us to allow our social institutions, i.e. The Government, to commit sins for us. It is the churches responsibility to bring justice to the unempowered - sometimes we have to do it through laws and policies - 1964 civil rights act.

Is it possible that the story is simply a truth myth? That there is a greater point to the story and that it was passed on so people could understand that greater point, but that the "facts" are not exactly the facts? Just asking.

I understand that WJC has a character flaw - don't we all - but his policies in regard to the poor (the most talked about group in the Bible) were much more moral and "value"-able than current policies. The tax cuts were met with some spending cuts over the last six years, but those spending cuts were in social programs - hurting what JC would call "the least of these."