KYFEDUMP

OK...I understand that some will think it's OK and some (like me) won't as it relates to amateur (HS) baseball. But, to extrapolate my argument further, if NCAA does it, then varsity HS thinks they need to in order to emulate the players on the next step up. Same goes for JV, then middle school, etc. You can't just say it's OK for the higher level (varsity HS) and not for younger players. I still believe that it is something unique to the pro game (and all of its levels). In the pros,the level of skill in "plunking" is also more likely to result in the desired message and not a catestrophic injury. If the plunking occurs, HS kids have been known to charge the mound and fight (just like the pros). Or curse when they're hit, which is an ejection offense in HS ball. I think the amateur/pro baseball distinction should be acknowleged, but I realize that a lot of the posters on here don't see it that way..

LL has some experience in this field (starting last year) and it appears to be working well. Both sides keep a clicker and discrepancies are settled by the official scorer (which might have a conflict of interest in regular season HS baseball since the home team IS the official scorer). You would have to bring the umpire(s) into it in some way during the regular season since they would most likely be the only non partisan authority figures there in case of differences in the two counts. And, the only way to do that would be as stated above, have the base umpire keep count along with the scorers. But, who would keep the database of the pitch counts for the teams of the region/district? The honor system would have to creep in here somewhere...wouldn't it?

Guys, I think we're getting OBR and Fed mixed up here....all you have to do in Fed is send them to first base...you don't pitch an IBB. You can have an unintentional intentional walk but the catcher doesn't stand up and move out for that one...

Coop, You are absolutely correct, time of pitch (when catcher can move out of box) is defined as the no return point in the pitching sequence. Basically, in NFHS, the initial movement of arms and/or legs that commit the pitcher to pitch..

Coop, You got me on that one...I was using the vernacular...a balk on the pitcher caused by the catcher not being in the box while the pitcher is pitching would be more PC...I can hear the pitcher now, Blue...I couldn't see whether his foot was in the box or not. .Also, if I can get a line on a Jaksa-Roder, I'll look the interpretation up and PM you. I'm sure it's in there, everything else is.. And,for NFHS rulebooks, go to http://www.nfhs.org and follow the links. They're $6.95 each. Casebooks (interpretations) are also there for the same price.

Calm down, Humpy....we're talking about AMATEUR baseball (and on this forum, HS baseball specifically). 98% of HS pitchers do not have the skill to put the high and tight pitch in the right place to protect against the squeeze so why take a chance on severely injuring someone. And as far as plunking someone, a pitch behind them sends the same message (don't tread on me) without fear of injury. You can't run over the catcher like they do in the pros either without being ejected or suspended.The pros is a wholly different animal with a different set of customs and if you can't see that..well.... You need to chill son...you've got some anger management issues...:irked:

Generally I deal with NCAA and Fed but I checked the online OBR and besides the IBB reference (with a balk as the penalty), the only thing I could find was in the 2.00 Definitions (Catcher's Box) stating the catcher had to be in the box at the time of the pitch. No penalty was specified. It may not be mandatory. I don't know if you remember the time about 10 years ago that the catcher's balk was called on Javy Lopez (Braves) when he was sitting up outside and one foot was outside the catcher's box. The rule might have been changed since that time. There is probably an interpretation in Jaksa-Roder but I don't have a copy... To sum up, I don't know for sure.

:thumb: I couldn't have said it better myself...

Coop, The rules book states that the catcher has to stay in the box until the time of the pitch. The correct interpretion for time of pitch is once a pitcher starts his motion (makes any movement of his arms and/or legs and is committed to pitch). At that time, the catcher can move to the side (out of the catcher's box if there is one) without a balk or illegal pitch being called. Time of pitch is not after he releases the ball.

Coop, The same rules applies to the IBB. Once, the pitcher starts his windup, the catcher can move outside the box (and not till he releases the ball as a lot of people think).

That could also start a fight...sometimes these kids don't understand the tit for tat thing...

Guys, At the middle school level, I'm not sure that most pitchers could hit a batter if they tried. You have to look at the level of play and use common sense. I believe that most HS pitchers do not have enough control to consistently put the up-and-in pitch in the right place to prevent the squeeze without endangering the batter. I have seen the pitchout work on the D3 level and in higher level HS games. Why go up-and-in and take a chance when there is a equally effective and safer way of accomplishing the same thing? But, JMO.

I guess we can agree to disagree...on the amateur level, it's a fine line between getting the ball up and in enough to keep from getting the bunt down without coming dangerously close to the batter's head. I've seen kids this year try to bunt the ball right in front of their face (and thank goodness, they made contact without having a richochet go off their face). Your scenario assumes that they will hit the dirt. It's too dangerous with the level of control that most amateur pitchers have (particularly when I feel that a pitchout is a safer way to accomplish the same goal and develop teamwork at the same time.). But, as the French say, "vive la differance".

And, the catcher can move out of the box as soon as the pitcher starts his windup...

I have seen it done in high school and college ball from the best seat in the house and it works. If batter has one foot totally out of box, illegally batted ball (fair or foul), runner out due to interference. Properly coached and executed this will work almost every time. Plus, up and in still gives the batter a chance to put the bat on the ball and foul in off (or in rare cases, get the bunt down).

Properly coached, the automatic pitch out would be on....righty pitcher sees situation, catcher sees batter square, as RHP starts windup, catcher moves out of the box to catch pitchout, if batter comes out of box to get bat on ball, he is guilty of interference, runner out. Otherwise, plenty of time to get runner unless he has a super big jump. With lefty, more communication from rest of team involved but same scenario. You don't have to throw at the batter to protect against the squeeze.

Not in amateur baseball...ever.

Niner, I'm sort of stuck in the 15th due to travel restrictions (and a REAL day job). I don't do just JV because of the low pay and the travel involved (the 15th is a pretty big region in area. Referencing my posts above, you will see that the JV we do is immediately after a varsity game and we (fellow blues and I) generally stay to do the game (even though we don't have to because the games are not assigned by our assigner). I admit it's a screwed up situation but it's the only game in town in the 15th.

And the congregation says AMEN....

CDB, According to the rule book, you call the pitch where it crosses (or would have crossed the front edge of the plate). Most HBP's by leaning in or sticking a wing out are balls. Strikes are usually hacked at by batters crowding the plate, even on the inside corner.

The 2-1 seven inning game hands down just due to the number of extra batters involved (at least 17 due to the number of runs scored and I would figure a few more runners LOB). And, don't forget the pitching changes for the team giving up 16. From personal experience, 2-1 (1.5-1.75 hours), 16-4 (2.25-2.5 hours minimum.)

Coop, Due to the time (varsity at 6, JV at 8:30 or 9), the evening is already shot (speaking for myself) and I stay. Typically, both umpires stay.However, there have been instances where one of the two umpires have to leave for some reason due to unplanned nature of the game and one umpire does the game from behind the plate. Once this year, both of us had to leave immediately after the game. I do not know if coaches or fans volunteered to umpire since I had to leave in a hurry for a trip out of town. I apologized to the coaches about now being able to stay, but again, we did not know the game was planned. No one (umpires, coaches, fans) likes the present system, but no one wants to do anything to change it either. Most of the time, I can guess which teams will play JV after the varsity game due to their past history. But sometimes the ones you think will, won't and vice versa. I would like to see a separate JV schedule with higher pay (maybe $40-45 for five innings) to make it worth an umpire's travel and give a opportunity for our association to get young umpires the training they need. But no one has asked me for my opinion...

Niner, You have heard of it now. The varsity-JV scheduling is a lot looser in our region. Rarely, some schools schedule JV games separately and treat them the same as varsity games (and the pay is the same as varsity for the seven inning games), but only certain schools do it this way. Most of the schools are looking at saving money by combining them with a varsity contest and do not play a standalone JV schedule. Regarding varsity-JV combination, JV games are not listed on our schedule nor are they assigned by our game assigner (our assigner does not receive any compensation for JV so the schools have to contact us directly). Typically, we do not know until we see our check at the start of the game if JV had been planned in advance. And,even then, they will decide to play on the spot and pay us the extra $25 out of the concession stand monies. Before the JV begins, we ask the coaches how many innings they want to play (up to five). Most of the time, it's either three or four innings. One time this year we did a five inning game. At the end of the predetermined number of innings, game over (tie or not).Score is rarely kept on the scoreboard, lineups are not exchanged, etc. (hence my remark earlier about treating these games as controlled scrimmages). I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but just the way it's done here. My solution would be that if JV were to be treated equally with varsity play, they should play a separate schedule, travel separately, and pay the same for games, and treat the games with the same level of attention that you would for varsity contests. Due to the costs of this solution, it's highly unlikely to happen (particularly in a low revenue sport like baseball). Alas, in a perfect world,....

Papa, If the statement in bold is correct, you call the pitch as is (if it's close to a strike, it's a strike), and you keep the batter in the box (also, if it's strike three, the batter is out). Then you call time as the coach comes out to argue the call. Rule of thumb for umpires, did they move closer to the pitch or not and did they make an attempt to avoid the pitch? The players like to "Iron Man" it, and not move much if any at all. Bottom line, they have to make some token attempt to avoid the pitch. If they do not move at all or move closer to the pitch, I keep them in the box and add the pitch to the count. PS...However, I've seen fellow blues who always give the batter first base no matter what the circumstances of the HBP. I agree, it needs to be more consistent.

L6, Typically a JV game is for a finite number of innings determined before the game begins. It does not matter if the score is tied, at the end of X innings, the game is over. Just because both coaches and teams wanted to continue to play because the score is tied does not really enter into the equation. And, since the pay was referenced as their reason for leaving, JV in our region only pays $25 per game, regardless of the number of innings. Since varsity is $55 for two more innings, the math does not add up. (With gas at $3.60 a gallon, we're not making much after expenses anyway.) If you want to get umpires to stay, pay them more money. The innings in a JV game typically take longer than a varsity game, so the school gets more time for the buck. JV games in our region are more like controlled scrimmages and they usually go three to four innings (to a maximum of 5). Our JV games after a varsity game are not hard scheduled or assigned, typically we don't know if the schools plan on playing JV until we arrive at the site. If they do, we stay another hour and a half for another $25 bucks. When schools start trying to take advantage of the cut rate and playing more innings, we would do what the two umpires mentioned did, we would say game over. If schools wanted to pay for the longer games at a higher rate, it would be no problem. With the pay differential the way that it is, you're fortunate to get umpires period. Their professionalism is not in question, only your judgement of their professionalism. PS...I'll bet that you had a son or relative playing and they had a good game going. :irked: