All Play No Work

Brief???

http://www.bluegrasspreps.com/showthread.php?t=76283

If there was a split (which there will not be) the KHSAA better start figuring out how it is going to hold two Sweet 16 tourneys at Rupp Arena and how it is going to hold 8 championship games at PJS and how it is going to hold two volleyball chamionships, two cross country championships etc without going broke.

Because as poorly as Prop 20 was defined the message was clear: Separate post-season play for public and private schools.

Prop 1 requires critical thinking of what could/may happen after it is put into effect. Some people have thought it out, most I would say have not. Whether the people actually voting on it have thought it through is unknown.

First, I don't think Prop 20 will ever become reality. It might pass but it will never become reality.

But, in theory playing along, I do not think you would see any public schools leave right away. Now if in future years whatever the private schools formed becomes sucessful then some public schools might want to join.

It would almost have to be looked at sport to sport.

For example, if the private schools formed some sort of volleyball associaton and every scholly given in volleyball to a Kentuckian was going to girls in that association..........and some parents started yanking volleyball kids out of public schools to enroll them in private schools then the conditions change.

Other sports it might not matter at all.

So to play devil's advocate, did religion and good academics just become important to them when they entered high school?

Good point......or you could play double devil and ask if private grade school kids that go to public high schools have their religion desires lessened at the high school age?

Actually it could be a mixture of things. Maybe some (parents/students) are looking for a more rigid, structured, disicplined form of education at that age or maybe they are looking for exposure in a certain sport.

I firmly do not believe the old "colleges will find you if you're good enough" theory.

Especially in Girls sports where the budget for scouting is limited.

Again private schools are not being kicked out. As class distinctions have been made for A, AA, AAA, and AAAA in cross country, track and football, class distinctions are being made for private and public.

 

Now if you want to take the position that the schools in A, AA and AAA were kicked out of the AAAA, than your stance is correct. If that is not your claim, than I believe it would be good for you to make truthful statements on what the proposal is doing and not statements to inflame the situation.

RE post 43:

Although I have gone on record as proclaiming Proposal 20 as nothing but a poorly written and lacking in definition Big Bluff............under Prop 20 private schools are being kicked out of the KHSAA as it exist today. Plain and simple.

No doubt and I agree. Not sure if this is the answer. Not sure what is, but know the system as is, does not work.

Well the answer certainly isn't to kick out the privates, and then kick out the wealthier publics that are now winning everything, and then kick out the slightly above middle class publics that are now winning everything.........

Why does the system have to "work"? How can it ever "work"?

Outside of taking money and volunteer time out of the pockets of the wealthier private/public schools parents and sending it to the not as wealthy non-volunteering areas of the state what can be done?

Probably Bellevue , Dayton ,and Ludlow

Disagree.

Although potentially all public schools are effected athletically because nearly all would have some players added to them if Private schools ceased to exist, I would not say any have been impacted to any great degree.

Next question:

 

Why does NKY have a different district "rule" about private/public district games than Louisville?

I don't think there is such a thing if there is a private/public split.

So if CovCath, Holy Cross, Holmes, Ludlow was a district previously... under the new "order" Holmes and Ludlow would be left as a district that could change and the private schools can do whatever they want also.

I would agree with the two you mention but through Lex Catholic in there. Also, it is not just about state titles, but regional dominance. As I have mentioned NO Class A public school has won the Class A regional title since the early 90's and Walton Verona who is no longer even in region 9. Private schools have passed that trophy around. Brossart has been dominate in basketball in the 10th region on both sides, girls and boys. Track and field has seen Brossart meet with a lot of success.

 

Of course you have the whole University Heights issue. Notre Dame has been pretty powerful in volleyball and soccer in NKY. Lex Christian is becoming a powerhouse in several different sports and I believe won the baseball championship this past year. Rose Hill, of course, had the OJ years that gave private schools a black eye. Those are the ones off the top of my head.

Answer these questions:

Re the 9th Region All-A private schools passing around the trophy--- Do the public schools in that region fund, coach, and field basketball teams in each school at each grade level including multiple teams if numbers warrant it (some private grade schools might have 4 sixth grade teams) from Grade 3 thru Grade 8? Do the public schools in that region form, fund, and coach First and Second grade teams and play at the Boys/Girls club or at the YMCAs because they do not want to wait until Grade 3? Do the parents of students in the public schools in that region form multiple AAU teams starting in the third grade? Does every public grade school in that region host their own tournament that involves multiple teams playing multiple games and requires parents to work multiple nights over a 2-3 week span?

There is your answer of how to pass the trophy around.

Now answer these questions:

Does public school Fort Thomas Highlands and the city of Fort Thomas field multiple football teams for each grade school level beginning in Grade 3 and continuing thru Grade 8? If numbers warrant it do they add more teams for each grade level so that no child is denied a chance to actually play in games (someone told me they have SIX 5th/6th grade teams this year)? Do they require parents to work concession stands, handle the chains, run the scoreboard? Do they have fund raisers to purchase equiptment? Dos someone organize a program and pictures? Do they encourage parents to help coach teams? Do they have former players come back to help coach and officiate games? Do they hold clinics in the summer?

There is your answer on how to pass the 3A football trophy around.

Is there really any difference in the above?

You may be right, some don't understand. I understand fully and completely. Only when they are seperated and some of the smaller privates start making the same complaints as the publics are making now, then and only then will they understand.

 

I never said it was completely fair, but it is equal and that is all it needs to be. Fair does not me equal. Nor does equal mean fair. That may be what this whole fight is about.

That is simply not true.

I'm sure going into any basketball season small private schools like Holy Cross, NCC, St. Henry, Brossart and especially Calvery Chrisitan and Heritage know that they face a very difficult challenge taking on much larger schools in their regions ......and should they somehow survive and advance will be the 14th-16th largest school out of 16 at Rupp. So good luck NCC vs Male, Holy Cross vs Warren Central. However these schools are the very ones saying "thats fine we will try our best and take our lumps if need be".

Same thing goes for other sports Sure Assumption and Sacred Heart are nearly impossible to defeat in volleyball but little St. Henry would love to give it shot this year.

Is that fair? Is that equal? Who cares thats the way it is.

I don't think 80 percent of the people who will vote for these proposals need anymore than minmimal research.

Why not? Some of the proposals could effect large numbers of students in the voters school and other schools. Why wouldn't they need to be informed of all possible consequences?

Back to original question:

Does everyone believe that each person that casts a vote will have done their best to research and understand the effects of each proposal on the students in the school they represent AND the effects on other students in the other schools in KY??????

I do not believe every voter throughly understands each proposal hence the need for an open forum.

Before Oct 20 should the Board of Control and each author of the Proposals hold an Open Forum so fans/students/parents can present ideas, thoughts, opinions on each proposal?

Maybe some BOC members in a series of forums in geographical areas or an open forum televised on KET?

Look at Bylaw 10 section C.

 

http://www.khsaa.org/handbook/bylaws/bylaw10.pdf

 

That appears to be the part they did not waive. HC , I'm guessing, does not usually have fundraisers for students, correct? HC did nothing but 100% the right thing for this family YET it still does not pass the KHSAA requirements. HC should be commended for showing what the spirit of Catholic schools is.

Then ALL families/students displaced by the hurricane would be ineligible (be they in a private or public school) unless they have purchased housing in KY with their own money. (And a car, clothing, etc.) And they must not have accepted any help that has a monetary value. Since many of these people lost everything how hard is it to examine the facts of the case and rule?

Has every other case of a displaced family/students coming to KY been investigated and cleared or did some students become immediately eligible?

I have no problem with the KHSAA coming out and saying:

A. No one displaced is eligible to play sports.

or

B. Displaced students are ineligible until we look into each case.

But not everyone is eligible but some are more eligible than others.

The KHSAA is obviously looking at the legal precedent. Some things may be settled on a case by case basis without sacrificing equtiy and the KHSAA is saying this isn't one of them. The broad and general rule of not allowing students to play if their tuition is paid by outside sources is something they aren't willing to compromise on, especially in specific cases. It seems they are thinking that to do so would open up every case to individual scrutiny and apparently the KHSAA is not wanting to go down that path.

 

Since the courts are so routinely involved now in these things, you can bet if they allow the kid to play under those circumstances, many others will challenge that issue and seek eligibility for students whose tuition is funded by outside sources. Each case would be presented with its own set of circumstances and pleas for consideration.

 

These are extreme circumstances. The KHSAA has done the right thing in allowing waivers of the 1 year rule for these transfers, as long as they don't violate any other KHSAA regulations. But one shoe isn't going to fit every foot.

 

Even though it is not a popular decision, I can respect the KHSAA for looking at the big picture here and taking a stand. If it were up to me, I don't know if I would take the same stance, but I do understand why they are ruling this way.

Then the KHSAA should not have come out and said this concerning LA/MS/AL students displaced by the hurricane:

The Kentucky High School Athletic Association shares the concern of the entire nation for the victims of Hurricane Katrina

in the wake of the storm that devastated the Gulf Coast Area and an unparalleled disruption of family life. The KHSAA is

on board with its other educational partners in the state of Kentucky and the nation in facilitating and accommodating the

needs of students who have been displaced due to the Hurricane.

Many of the KHSAA member schools are already receiving students and are adapting their admittance policies under the

guidance of the Kentucky Department of Education and other governing agencies. The Association, along with everyone

else, wants to do its part to facilitate the students’ return to a normal life if at all possible. Therefore, in the spirit of

cooperation, the KHSAA is attempting to adapt the Domestic Student Eligibility or “Transfer Process” due to the difficulty

in obtaining student records from schools in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana.

The KHSAA is not however summarily waiving all regulations particularly age, (Bylaw 3) academic or grade (Bylaw 5), or

recruitment rules (Bylaw 10). In addition, the Association cannot waive the physical exam or insurance requirements

(Bylaw 2) required for participation in athletics.

“Obviously this has been a catastrophic situation these students and their families have been through the last couple of

weeks,” KHSAA Commissioner Brigid DeVries said. “While ensuring the basic rules of the Association, we hope to

expedite the transfer process to help get a form of normalcy back into their daily lives.”

“Congratulations are in order to KHSAA member school personnel who have indicated that they are planning a variety of

activities and designating a portion of the proceeds to support relief efforts,” DeVries concluded.

AGAIN I will assume this family was not going to a private Catholic school in LA for FREE so the tuition money exist somewhere.

Where is the "expedite the transfer process to help get a form of normalcy back into their daily lives"????????

Many school districts accept a limited number of kids from out of district. Most schools in this area have recipricol agreements, so the schools that the student attends gets the state money. However it's a different issue to confuse schools who have a SMALL number of out of district kids, with Private schools that have to recruit ALL students.

 

Again, I'm not a private hater. I think it would be silly to talk negatively about a group of schools that do a better job at educating our kids. I just think that like schools should compete against each other for state titles.

But there are some private schools who have LESS out of district (feeder parish) kids (which is sometimes hard to define since they do not have technically have districts) than some public schools.

Plus there are some private schools that by design (for example Covington Latin) offer a tract that other private schools do not and therefore are designed to draw students from all over. (Kind of like a magnet school.)

Maybe Trinity works differently from every other private school. Most of the rest will throw you butt out in a heartbeat if they consider you a troublemaker. They also can refuse to accept you if you don't meet their standards. If you don't think selectivity is an advantage, then what is. Public schools spend a huge amount of resources on kids that drop out as soon as they legally can.

What you say has a lot of truth.

But is it (selectivity) unavoidable?

Could public schools define a student as "at risk" and "not spend a huge amount on resources on kids that drop out as soon as they legally can"?

So what I'm asking is could the public schools become more selective and better use resources to ID and assist kids that will drop out?

To me it sounds like you yourself could identify such kids and you know that funds are not being used as best as they could. Are there certain laws that would prohibit such things?

I think something everyone may be missing in this:

I am going to assume this family had already paid tuition for him and his sister at the private school in LA. Most private schools do not allow students to begin classes unless payment plans are in place. They may have paid upfront or quarterly, monthly whatever but lets assume they have paid. And lets assume there is not a great difference in price, which is likely a safe assumption seeing as Holy Cross is about $3000 cheaper than any Catholic school in Cincinnati, and about $2000 less than CovCath and ND.

Now it would just be a matter of the diocese in LA releasing the funds to the diocese in Covington. That may not be all that easy since the school and diocese office etc may all be gone or no one may have access to the offices, records etc.

So its not like they would be attending "free". It is simply a matter of moving funds.

Gotcha. As one person pointed out earlier, there is a limit on how much taxes can be raised in one year without it going to the public on a vote.

 

I do have a question. With Title IX, how was it balanced in with the girls sports when alumni raised money to put the synthetic surfaces down at Highlands and other schools? Any idea?

I'm not a turf expert but I would guess that Band activites and PE classes are held on turf fields which is a benefit to both boys and girls. Also schools that have soccer have the possibility of having both Boys and Girls soccer teams play on them.

I do think private schools have one advantage ... no Title IX concerns.

 

Black Eagle stated his point very well ... private schools, by their very nature, will probably have an average kid that is a notch above the average public school student in terms of motivation and parental support.

All schools that are members of the KHSAA must adhere to Title IX and are audited by the KHSAA. Now if you are a single-sex school it makes things easier. But if you are a co-ed private school there is no difference from any other KHSAA school with regards to Title IX.

For starters to me it's no diffrent then what Ohio did by creating the GCL. Correct me if im wrong I have not researched in great detail so I could be off key a little. But please how can you say go open enrollment throughout the state.

 

Guru, I know you dont agree but its the truth you will have 300 football starts at Boone Co, 100 Baseball studs and Conner and so on and so on. Then your bring up the point of testing. What school gets all the stupid kids who cant pass the test to get into Ryle? I think everyone needs to take a step back and look at the importance of H.S. Education then H.S. Sports. It's not college no kid should be giving a grant/scholarship because he can simply run a 4.3 40. Im as big as a sports nut as the next guy. I also think H.S. sports are one the the most purest forms of sports around.

 

Either split them up or let these Private schools keep RECRUITING there players and waxing the public schools.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Or not have their talent playing for other schools. 2 years ago, 3 young ladies were on the 9th region all-tournament team. All 3 had played varsity for a certain A public school. Only 1 of the 3 were still playing for that school when they were named on the all-tournament team. If the 3 had stayed, they probably would have had a chance to compete for that title.

News flash. This happens at public schools as well as private schools.

The most noted case in NKY history involved a girl B-Ball player that played 2 years of Varsity at Public small school B as a 7th and 8th grader, transfered to medium Public School H for Frosh, Soph, Junior years, and then to large Public school BC for Senior year.

Would small public school B have had a chance to compete for a title had she stayed there? Sure. Should the other Public schools be put in a separate class now?

So you are against the salary cap that has made NFL more of parity league and prefer the nature of baseball, where you have the Yankees, REd Sox and everyone else?

 

I guess the management of those small market teams should just work harder and then the Reds could compete with the Yankees.

Bad example. The NFL (where you say parity exist) has been dominated by one team in the last four years. How could that possibly be?

And just to add a log to the fire, I will reiterate, no NKY Class A school has won the 9th region A title since Walton-Verona in the early 90's. THe private schools have just passed it around.

I would take an educated guess that those private A schools that have won the 9th region A titles have had a core group of players that have played with and against each other from the 1st grade thru the 8th grade. Additionally, that same core has probably played with each other or against each other in multiple AAU leagues. Some kids probably average 50-60 games a year.

Now there is no reason that public school students cannot do the same thing and many of them have already started leagues and formed AAU teams. Maybe not to the extent of the private schools yet but it could be soon.