Diogenes

ttt

Any word yet?

St. X first. My sons attended there/played there and I graduated from a Xaverian Brother school.

At the risk of sounding too provincial, Catholic schools in the Jefferson County area second, and also Butler high school. (My wife attended Butler and their fans and teams show a lot of class, IMO.)

Third, out in the state Catholic schools because I know the sacrifices parents go through to have their child attend a Catholic school.

Fourth, the Bowling Green Purples. My son informed me that when St. X played them, they were a classy team. I felt that their fans were classy in the stands. Ditto for John Hardin.

I do not root against anyone, but I was sorely disappointed with the votes of the Jefferson County public schools, particularly Manual, in the recent public/private vote. I had really believed that St. X and Manual had a "special" relationship, particularly since St. X had been a good tenant for Manual over all these years. This has diminished my ability to cheer for those schools. (I am not trying to revive the public/private arguments here, just following the thread as to the schools I root for. Also, I probably need to get over my disappointment in those votes.)

The thread is titled "why do the public schools in NKY get along with their private school neighbors." It seems to me that this premise is true. I base this on reviewing primarily football posts on BGP in the past. My speculation is a bit different than many posts thus far. Over time I have been struck by the different tone and ideological underpinning of many of the NKY posters, as opposed to posts from other areas of the state. In general, those NKY posters are not as irrationally strident as many other posters (and many of those irrationally strident posters, I am chagrined to report, seem to be from Louisville). Ideologically, it seems that many NKY posters, when facing adversity, look to themselves to fix the problem rather than complain about how others put them in whatever dilemma they may be in. To me, they seem to have a strong streak of individualism and voice more of a "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" attitude. BTW, this may the attitude to have-look at the success of their schools academically and athletically. At any rate, focusing on improving your own shortcomings as opposed to obsessing on other’s successes, leaves less room for rancor, IMHO.

Back to back titles for the Rocks. Not bad for a team that doesn't even have a track. What a great way to end the year.

Congratulations T. Interesting observation regarding facilities. It underscores a sentiment of many posters regarding the importance (or lack thereof) of facilities. The top two finishers in 3A track this year did not have a track. One 4A football team has won numerous state titles and since 1959 has a winning record against all active Jefferson County high schools and does not have a stadium. Facilities can be overrated relative to the success of a team.

CentreRocks, LSURock:

Let us suppose, for argument sake, that the drawing was rigged? How does this hurt X? In all likelihood X will have to play PRP and Male to advance to a game with T (if T also gets that far). If X wins game 3, the rest should be downhill to the state title. Under the old system the road to state title would also have led through those 3 opponents. So it appears that the overall path to state should be about the same, just in a different order. With the new system X has a shot at splitting a huge pot with T for game 3. That money for X vs. T in the finals all went to the KHSAA under the old system.

I am not condoning the fact that the drawing was shrouded in secrecy or even perhaps rigged. I am saying that for X and T the goal is championship, so runner-up, 3rd, 5th or whatever is not that critical. But another huge X/T playoff pot will immensely help both schools. Contrary to many posters on BGP not affiliated with private schools, money does not grow on trees and this extra money will help extend already scarce resources for each institution.

Well…permit me to play the role of the contrarian. I believe that the rule Connecticut implemented is to keep coaches who will act like jerks from running up the score. Permit me to give examples of what I believe Connecticut is attempting to avert.

1. Team A is leading team B 34-14 with five minutes to go in the fourth quarter of the state championship game. The coach of Team A keeps his first stringers in the game in an attempt to score again. What on earth is the purpose of this? Who on earth does it benefit? The second stringers on Team A, who practiced in the blazing sun during August and shivered in the cold of November do not even get in the state championship game. The team that is being blown out is further humiliated.

2. Team A is leading team B 60-0 in a playoff game. It is early in the fourth quarter and Team A keeps its starters in. Does the coach put in bench players? Does he run the ball? Does he punt on third down? Does he have his team take a knee? Of course not, he is too busy sending in deep passing plays.

I have attended both games listed above and watched with disgust the late stages of the game. I am as red-blooded as the next guy, and I understand that football is a tough, brutal game. But really, this classless, boorish behavior is a stain on a great game. I really don’t know how to implement a rule penalizing teams that run up scores. Of course I agree with the sentiments expressed above when a team puts in bench players. It is improper to instruct a youngster not to perform at his highest possible level. But what I object to, and what I believe the Connecticut rule was meant to avoid is keeping 1st stringers in and mercilessly drubbing a hapless opponent. For the last three years I have watched one of the big 4A schools in Jefferson County play a hapless opponent. In each time, that school opens the game with its first string and the first stringers play their best. Once the score indicates that the game is out of reach (say 35-0 in the second quarter) then the second string comes in for this team and later the third string. Even though it is regrettable that one team is so vastly superior to the other team, these teams have to play because of district pairings. However, the dominant team wins in as classy a manner as possible. And, occasionally the score has exceeded the 50 point victory margin. I assume that no one would wish the winning team to be penalized in this type of game. However, if a penalty could be fashioned to punish coaches for keeping in first stringers and running up the score, I would not oppose it.

I'm away for a day and things seem to get worse.

 

Well 02Ram54, you said noone presented a good layout. I've got one for you. We debated the other night about this perfect setup that you think we had. But just as you seem to avoid Woody's questions, so did you on my questions.

 

I pointed out that the current alignment, even though some of you wanted to make it out that it was geographically perfect and even, it was in fact unbalanced at 24 teams in the West and 30 teams in the East. My premise is that it was designed that way to get the Louisville schools on opposite sides to help steer an all Louisville championship. You scoffed. Others also present the 54 teams as split 27 on each side East and West, but they are not. I am presenting you below the districts in the same numbers as the KHSAA has it now, with 30 teams in one side and 24 in the other side. Except I put 30 in the West and 24 in the East. They are geographically balanced and put all Louisville teams in the West. Which I can't imagine anyone could look at these and feel they are any less fair or geographically off balance than what it is now. I laid them out just as they are now as far as format goes, Districts of 8,8,7,7 and 6,6,6,6 as the number of teams in the respective districts, only I flipped the West and East with the numbers. If the East could have 30 teams why not the West?

 

Let the debate begin.

 

R1-D1 Barren, Christian, Graves, Greenwood, Marshall, Owensboro, Apollo, Daviess

 

R1-D2 Warren Central, Grayson, Henderson, Ohio, John Hardin, North Hardin, Central Hardin, Meade

 

R2-D1 Bullitt Central, Butler, Iroquois, Manuel, Male, PRP, St. X

 

R2-D2 Ballard, Eastern, Fern Creek, Seneca, Trinity, Southern, Nelson

 

R3-D1 Boone, Ryle, Conner, Holmes, Dixie, Scott

 

R3-D2 Scott Co., Woodford, Oldham, Shelby, Campbell, Simon Kenton

 

R4-D1 Clark, Bryan Station, Henry Clay, Lafayette, Dunbar, Tates Creek

 

R4-D2 N. Laurel, S. Laurel, Montgomery, Lincoln, Whitley, Madison Central

Hey, not bad. X fans may suggest just one tweek: swap X with Southern. Southern is geographically west of X, and it would balance the districts more evenly, putting X and T in one district and Manual, Male and PRP in another. Better yet, it would put X in the east, and further balance the state, with Manual, Male, Warren Central, Henderson, John Hardin, North Hardin, Meade, Christian, Marshall and PRP in the west and X and T in the east.

Back to the topic: Why don't you hear X and T cmplaining about the blind draw and what does that mean?

People tend to analyze situations from their unique perspective. Put another way, environment matters. Many Manual fans, for example, feel that the new sitution hurts their school: Manual, while playing good football, has little chance to win a state championship in football. Manual last won a state championship in 1966. Manual now has less chance of advancing deep into the playoffs, hurting postseason monetary possibilities as well as quashing excitement at the school on the occasional year that it may have gone deep into the playoffs. St. X is helped by the new system. Most years X had to play Male, Manual or PRP in their district. This will not change. Round three this year may pit them against Trinity. Unlike the state championship game, in which all proceeds go to the KHSAA, the proceeds go to the participants here. The money is important to X because they receive no funds from the state. Also, the lack of travel in the first two rounds helps X for monetary reasons as well as the fact that even when they are playing an "away" game in Jefferson County they will generally have the larger crowd unless they're playing against Trinity in which case the crowd should match up evenly. Round three in future years gives them an opportunity to play in the Eastern region, which, recently, absent Trinity, has been the weaker region. Thus, for X, more money this year and in the future a potentially easier road to state.

Apparently the "pay tuition and attend JCPS schools" doesn't apply to Male, Manual, Butler, etc. However, even if it did, I think the claim that these schools would have exactly the same ability to draw players from outside of Jeff Co or Kentucky as the big privates do is absurd. I can only imagine the accusations of illegal recruiting that would follow if Male and Manual opened up out-of-County admissions and had as many non-Jefferson County impact players as X and T do.

Well, why not. Don't worry about what others say about you, just do the right thing. That is one of the problems with public education- no competition. Every other segment of our nation (lawyers, butchers, auto manufacurers, etc. compete). Why should public schools get a free pass? Competition would sharpen them. Weak schools, if forced to compete for students, would either improve or wither and perish.

Ram2003 posted:

Now, if someone could please explain to me the BENEFITS of this new schematic, and stop all the childishness, I think we'd all not only see things a lot clearer, but we might actually come up with answers.

There are benefits and there are detriments to this new schematic. As I posited in an earlier post, and immediate beneficiary is St. X. The Tigers get to split a possible huge payoff pot with the Shamrocks if a Saint X- Trinity game materializes in game three of the playoffs. The two have been meeting fairly regularly for the state title but all the proceeds in that game went to the KHSAA, who will no longer regularly reap the rewards of the old system that often pitted the Tigers and Shamrocks in the state title game. Additionally, St. X will profit from the new schematic because if the bell shaped curve holds true about 50% of the time St. X will play in the Eastern region, which is historically the weaker region. Trinity will benefit in the short run but the new system made be detrimental to the Shamrocks in the long run. They may have the opportunity to share the big payout in the potential St. X-Trinity game three of the playoffs. However, in the long run, the bell shaped curve may work to their disadvantage because they should have to play 50% of their post-intradistrict games in the Western region, most recently the more difficult region.

As your compadre, 02Ram54, has been pointing out, the big losers are PRP, Butler and Manual. He is accurate when he forecasts that it will be virtually impossible for Manual ever to win a state championship under the new schematic. It was virtually impossible for Manual to win a state championship under the old system (they had not won a state title since 1966). The difference, though, is that under the old system Manual had a punchers chance to go three or four deep in the playoffs. Now, almost every year their first two games will be against Male and then St. X, and because they should finish below those two teams in the regular season they will seldom be the home team. St. X will have their stadium completed after this year, so Manual will no longer have the luxury of playing the “away” game against X at home. Manual doesn’t go as deep in the playoffs, losing revenue from extra playoff games and school spirit is stifled from a steady diet of one and out or two and out post seasons. Ditto for PRP and Butler.

At first blush it appears that the new system (Intradistrict first two games, then draw for the next two) affects the following schools in the following manner:

St. X- Helps: Most years they had to play Male, Manual or PRP in their district. This will not change. Round three this year may pit them against Trinity. Unlike the state championship game, in which all proceeds go to the KHSAA, they will split the gate. The money is important to X because they receive no funds from the state. Along these lines, the lack of travel in the first two rounds helps them for monetary reasons as well as the fact that even when they are playing an "away" game in Jefferson County they will generally have the larger crowd unless they're playing against Trinity in which case the crowd should match up evenly. Round three in future years gives them an opportunity to play in the Eastern region, which, recently, absent Trinity, has been the weaker region.

Trinity- Hurts in the long run: This first year the new system should assist Trinity for the same monetary reasons it should assist St. X. Future years, however, could cause them to play Western Kentucky teams such as John Hardin, Henderson County, Warren Central North Hardin and Christian County, which recently are overall generally a notch above the Eastern bracket.

Male- Helps: They still have to play the same intradistrict games that St. X plays, but they also get a shot at the Eastern region with the possibility, like St. X, of an easier road to the state championship.

Manual, PRP, Butler- Hurts: Generally these schools, while playing good football, have little chance to win a state championship in football. PRP has never won; Manual last won in 1966 and Butler has not won state for a quarter century. However, these schools now have less chance of advancing deep into the playoffs, hurting postseason monetary possibilities as well as quashing excitement at the schools on the occasional year that one of these schools may have gone deep into the playoffs.

First, congratulations to Trinity on Coach Coverdale returning. I remember the guy from his first stint with the Shamrocks, and from talking with other Trinity people in the know it is apparent that he is quite a coach, as well as a good man. Trinity faithful, is this an upgrade from Coach Adams?

Next, I did not take Strike-3’s comments as an attack on Coach Coverdale, but rather as legitimate inquiry regarding why the Trinity faithful are so excited over Coverdale’s return after a less than stellar performance as head coach in Indiana. This is certainly a legitimate question.

As to his comment that “Trinity has been setup to win titles with as little difficulty as possible. St. X and Male having to play each other in the Semis is quite a disadvanted when compared to the Rocks.”; Trinity has not met St. X in any playoff game other than a state championship game since 1986 (the state finals, as we all know, is a different story but that is not what Strike-3 is posting about) and Trinity has not played Male in a playoff game other than in a state championship game since 1996; prior to that it was 1986. On the other hand, since 1986, St. X and Male have met along the road in playoff matches prior to the state championship in 1989, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002 and 2003.

I do not believe that the KHSAA “set up” the playoff to favor Trinity; unfortunately for St. X and Male the latest iteration of the division of the big three put Trinity in the East and the St. X and Male in the West. Most high school football fans realize that there was no intent to pave the way for Trinity to win state football titles, and most high school fans realize that St X and Male are in an extraordinarily tough football district.

Actually Tony driver was "adopted" by someone here in Louisville and that is how he ended up at Male. His brother played his first year at Male then went back home to Glasgow. You all might be correct that a kid from another county in KY could come to a public school and pay tuition. However, that kid would not have the option of applying for "financial aid" like the parochial schools. With that being said, I guess the public school principals should get together and start actively start recruiting kids outside of the county. Then set up a way that these same kids could get financial aid. Then the playing field would be level. I don't think that will ever happen. So what do the coaches and kids that work so hard do when they still have to play you guys?

Sometimes it seems that some posters on PGP willfully misunderstand the situation regarding public/private. However, your post seems to be sincere. Let me clarify two misconceptions for you.

1) Misconception-"I guess the public school principals should get together and start actively start recruiting kids outside of the county."

Reality- Catholic school principals do not "get together and start actively recruiting kids outside of the county." In case you are unaware, there is quite a rivalry between St. X. and Trinity. It is doubtful that their principals "get together" over virtually anything, and they certainly don't "get-together" over "actively recruiting kids outside of the county".

2) Misconception-"You all might be correct that a kid from another county in KY could come to a public school and pay tuition. However, that kid would not have the option of applying for "financial aid" like the parochial schools."

Reality- RockPride, in post #53 noted that even with maximum need-based aid a student at Trinity would have to pay a minimum of $4000 in tuition. At St. X., tuition is about $8,500 per year and I do not believe that any student can receive more than about 40% need-based assistance. Conservatively, then, the minimum a student receiving maximum need-based aid would have to pay in tuition at St. X. is about $5,000. RockPride's subsequent post shows that "As of today it would cost a non-resident of Jefferson County $4,122 to attend a JCPS, each year." (See post #61). So you see, the kid from the public school would not even have to apply for financial aid and would still be better off financially than the kid from the St. X. or Trinity.

Thanks for clarifying your answer. Originally, I had thought that perhaps you were making some insinuation that St. X was doing something wrong or had some advantage by taking a player from the public system, but now I see that my impression was erroneous, although you may be able to see why I was confused by rereading your posts. Originally, you stated that you were sure he played in the Catholic system. Then you posted that "i guess he is from outside the catholic ranks".

By the way, although Butler, Male, Manual or PRP cannot, to my knowledge, take students from Indiana they can take students from outside of Jefferson County in Kentucky. A student from Oldham County, Bullitt County, Spencer County, or any other county can attend any public school in Jefferson County. However, that student would have to pay a nominal tuition to attend a Jefferson County public school. On the other hand, if that student were to attend a Jefferson County Catholic school the student would have to pay a phenomenal tuition. So you see, if the facts are actually examined, public schools have an advantage over the Catholics in so far as students attending their school from another county in Kentucky. Public schools, being taxpayer financed, also have the advantage of being able to take students whose families have no money whatsoever to pay for tuition. The Catholics are limited only to students whose families can come up with several thousand dollars in tuition, as the Catholics can only give a partial tuition offset based on need. I venture to say that the Catholics receive far fewer students from Indiana than the publics receive from Catholic grade schools who have students that cannot come up with several thousand dollars for high school tuition. Again, when the facts are examined, the public schools have an advantage overall because they attract more students who cannot pay any tuition than the Catholics attract from Indiana. If you belonged to a Catholic parish you would see each year a number of Catholic grade school students who would like to continue on to Catholic high school, but whose parents do not have the funds available to pay for the tuition.The one big advantage that St. X and Trinity do have in football is an overwhelming numbers advantage.

Any further information on the "stud running back" supposedly lifting at St. X.? Size, name ?? It seems that in the past few years St. X. has solidified its reputation as a running team and Trinity has solidified its reputation as a passing team. Thus, it should be no surprise to anyone that running backs tend to gravitate towards St. X. and quarterbacks tend to gravitate towards Trinity.

BTW, BR90, this young man may not have played grade school football at a Catholic school. There is no requirement that a Catholic high school football player have played grade school football a Catholic grade school. Conversely, there is no requirement that a public school high school player have played his grade school football at a public institution. There are a great number of high school football players in Louisville playing at public schools who played grade school football at Catholic schools. Schools don't own players; the young man and his parents make a determination as to what high school they wish the young man to attend. If that family chooses to pay $8,500 per year tuition for whatever reason to attend St. X., it is their choice, not the choice of the public or private school systems.

Anyway, back to the topic of thread. Does anyone have any information on how the incoming freshman football candidates at St. X and Trinity are doing?

St. X has a pretty forminable schedule for the year:

Bowling Green, Lexington Catholic, Fern Creek, Highlands, Trinity, Manual, PRP, Iroquois, and Male.

Highlands, Trinity, Bowling Green, PRP and Male may be top 5 in their class. Lexington Catholic, Fern Creek, and Manual are traditionally strong. This year should be one of the best in a while for Iroquois. BTW, X closes out with Butler, a team with a coach there for his first year, but who did a fine job at Fairdale.

It appears to me that most of the people bashing this are private school supporters. I guess they don't want any public schools to have a new nice stadium. Maybe they are scared that it will take away one of their selling points when out of the recruiting trail. :laugh:

St. X does not have a stadium, so if your statement is accurate about private schools it must not refer to the Tigers.

Good for Fairdale! The new stadium will be quite an asset to the school and the community. To paraphrase the campaign requirement "I'm a taxpayer (with a youngster in private school) and I endorse this message." The legislators just allocated $75,000,000 to U of L for an arena when they already have a perfectly good arena, so why not $300,000 to Fairdale for a new stadium?

BTW Ram fans, I believe Manual has the top high school stadium in the Commonwealth. If it were up to me, X would remain a tenant rather than spend millions for a new stadium.

Isn't this a departure from the St.X tradition of promoting from within the family?

Although X often promotes from within, there is flexibility in this policy. For example, the Assistant AD is from T. Bart Bruner, the departing coach in this thread, was not an X grad. Of the 10 coaches on the staff listed at the X website, I believe either 5 or 6 are not X grads.

What is the norm at other schools? What mixture of alum/non-grads at high schools in the Commonwealth?

Well, with the exception of 2003, this EXACT format of schedule has helped us win 3 of the other 4 state championships.

Yes, I agree with you. That was my point. I don't believe anyone would quibble that X played a rougher schedule than T last year, for example, but that killer schedule did not produce a state title. I am saying that at the HS level a killer schedule may have an adverse impact. Starters have to play most of the game, with more opportunities for injury. I am sure that many at X would swap Male, PRP, Highlands and Bowling Green for any four on T's schedule.

Nice looking schedule loaded early, and then as ease back into the playoffs. I don't know what I see yet....but I know that we will be peaking again in time for the playoffs our schedule has really helped us to do that recently.

I will play the contrarian, RockPride. I am not sure of the effect of schedule on playoff success in HS football. One could argue that a weak schedule permits liberal substituting, lessening the odds of injuries to key players.

The preseason predictions have yet to come out. Manual looks to be down a bit from last year. Other than X, are there any top 10 opponents on the schedule?

ladiesbballcoach posted:

BTW, if a private school could swing no financial aid and only have students come from feeder schools, they would be in that last classification.

Why no financial aid? Publics receive 100% financial aid and pay $0. On this matter, if privates received 100% aid, it would only level the playing feild. What do you think?

Congratulations. I'll disagree with LSURock on this one. I will hate to see him leave. And, unlike LSURock, I did not regret Brohm's graduation.

CharlieWeiss posted:

And as long a 3-4 schools are allowed to take their cream off the top they will have a more elite base of alumni to donate to their facilities plans.

Isn't that the crux of the issue? What are your thoughts on Guru's truism:

"Remember, you can't self impose restrictions on your own school district and then complain that others won't do the same."

Agree or disagree CharlieWeiss, H, others?