Diogenes

It seems like Sen Shaughnessy wants to have things both ways. On one hand, in light of the obvious inherent differences between public and private schools such as private schools' utter lack of enrollment boundaries or feeder patterns, when public schools voted overwhelmingly for separate state championship tournaments (exercising their right through the KHSAA legislative process to choose who they play), Mr. Shaughnessy screams about discrimination.

On the other, he says it is unfair to place eligibility limitations on kids who come to private schools from well outside what could be considered reasonable attendance boundaries or feeder schools because that would take away their right to choose which school is best for them.

 

The state Board of Education's direction was to seek compromise to championship separation. It seems that Mr. Shaughnessy isn't interested in anything other than maintaining the status quo.

I just do not understand Mr. Sears position. A student can either attend a private school and pay $8500 per year or attend a public school absolutely free. With the $8500 handicap, so what if the privates invite students from out of county? Sears would argue for no out of county students, no publicity for your school to attract students, and his group having an $8500 annual advantage. Can anyone explain how this is fair? What is wrong with the status quo?

But open enrollment has been held up as a thing that schools place on themselves and for a good number of rural schools they could have open enrollment and it would not change one thing. They could vote for it or vote against it and it is irrelevant. Open enrollment is not the cureall.

 

That is why I have been saying for a long time in this forum that it is more a rural/urban issue than a public/private issue.

This is the post I was referring to (#86, above). My point is that if you feel it is a rural/urban issue, how is your link to the earlier post and your proposed solution germane to the problem as you see it?

http://www.bluegrasspreps.com/showthread.php?t=86225

 

This was my compromise from months ago.

Well.. that is not what your link says. Wouldn't your system more accurately be summarized as: All schools in a rural area (counties with population density less than XXX) are in one division, and the remainder in the other?

You last part I agree with. If it was simply just about working harder than you would have to tell Highlands that they must not work as hard as ST. X. I believe X has beat them the last two seasons. And I don't believe that X outworks the coaching staff or supporters of Highlands.

 

I think this issue is one that has no good answer. Anyway you fall, a good number of kids are/will suffer.

 

I will say that while LC and the others do put a good amount of resources, time and effort, the big difference lies with the parents who spend time, resources, effort with their kids developing LONG before they got into HS. Those players were not developed by LC but by the parents who have spend many hours on the road taking their children to leagues, tournaments, AAU and the like. I don't begrudge them that whatsoever.

 

But unfortunately in a public school setting, those parents are the rarity and not the norm. And I think that is a mindset that is behind this movement. The resources including parental support is simply not there. It is not about kicking out the privates but developing two classifications that are more similar.

 

Also, why I don't think a split at the private/public split is the way to go.

Is it correct that you feel that a split should be rural/ urban, if at all?

Don't they face X, Male, Manual, Butler over 4 consecutive weeks? When does that stretch begin??

Indeed, and Central the week before X. They say if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.

Which Kentucky high school football analysis system generally proves the most accurate? I am aware of the Litkenhaus ratings, the Cantrel ratings, the AP poll, the Courier-Journal preseason poll and the BluegrassPreps ratings. There may be more rankings out there. Has anyone ever performed any systematic analysis on these ratings systems to determine which best predicts outcomes of games? Also, where can one access weekly updates on these various systems, and is it possible to access historical databases for these systems? For example, does anyone know if there exists a listing of early 1990's Cantrel ratings or 1970s Litkenhaus ratings? Finally, if anyone has conducted a systemic study of the validity of any of these ranking systems would you be willing to publish the study or share it with us?

Here's a question. It seems that many on this thread, including the Saint X fans, are really impressed by HHS. However, Bowling Green played Saint X a closer game this year. Is Saint X a lot better now than they were when they played BG?

 

Also, for the Saint X fans, how would you compare HHS with BG?

BG's defense may have been better. H's offense was superior, but most of the BG backfield was out the night they played X.

I said it in an earlier post, but it bears repeating: Immense respect for Highlands. They have far fewer boys in the school than X, IMO less athleticism, but they stuck right with X, and never blinked or flinched. It again confirms the old axiom: It's not the size of the dog in the fight-its the size of the fight in the dog.

Justin Collins can fly. If there is a faster kid in the Commonwealth I would like to see him!

That folks is what we call throwing gasoline on a fire. Fortunately, it's an HHS thread and not many people care about the public/private debate...

Yep, I'm afraid you're right. And if there has been one area of the state consistently supportive of privates it is NKY. Most St. X fans I know have the utmost respect for the 16 time state champion Bluebirds and look forward to a highly competitive game with a school that plays anyone anywhere anytime!:thumb:

I agree! We saw Beaumont -- saw him go by on the left -- saw him go by on the right...

 

I think they will be adjusted for Mr. Anderson. We just need the offense to click and special teams to play well.

 

I don't know if we'll pull off the win; but it will not be a blow-out! I think a few of the X faithful are living in last year.

Birdsfan 9-6-2005 predicting the performance of St. X in the Highlands game last year (a 45-0 St. X route):'They "may" win; but there will be no domination.

Is the game on radio in the Cincy area? If so, what chanel?

This must really hit a nerve with our friends on Shelbyville Road based on their reaction. The article states that during the 2005/2006 school year ST. X won one national title, two state titles, and had three runner-up titles, plus made it to the final four of the baseball tournament. All very factual statements. The program also states that during the past 9 years, St. X has won 35 state championships, at least two in every sport except basketball where St. X has been shut out. So I guess you could say only winning two state titles last year was below average. It goes on to mention that the 2005 St. X football team had four members who were National Merit Scholars and who are now attending Yale, Notre Dame, U. of Florida and UK. A fact that should be duly noted in the program, as there are many schools that did not have four NMS total, much less on the football team.

 

Finally, for many of our posters who are infatuated with national rankings, St. X was ranked the 14th best athletic program in the nation last year by Sports Illustrated.

 

I am not quite sure why this has generated so much interest, I am sure other schools proudly proclaim their achievements in their various programs and publications as they should.

There is a certain group of Trinity and St. Xavier posters who seem to try to find issues that allege to be to the detriment of the other school. It has become such an embarrassment that it is the topic of a separate thread tonight. These posters consistently misstate facts, feign shock over non-issues, and often thread jack benign discussions about high school sports. The BGP edict that came down earlier noted:

So, you should know that, from the outside looking in, this petty bickering, name calling and lower-case spelling is a bit shocking. It would seem to be beneath you -- reminiscent of two kindergarten kids fighting over a sandbox toy.

Hopefully this newly vigilant policy by BGP will curtail the “kindergarten kids”. Now that Old Corps accurately summarized the “offending text” is there any criticism of the article? If anything, there should be pride in all of us for a team that was runner up for 4A state, lost only one game the entire year, and had four members who were National Merit Scholars and who are now attending Yale, Notre Dame, U. of Florida and UK.

First, I'm not buying the sob story. X had a hundred year head start as basically the only show in town and that counts for something. Besides, for years I have heard X-men say that they loved "Historic Manual Stadium" and wouldn't want to play anywhere else. If the Tigers are practicing on the baseball field, I guess the "sinkhole" reports were in error? FYI, St.Agnes practices are held after high school practices are over.

I don't know anything about a "sob" story. Indeed, many X people feel Manual Stadium is the finest high school stadium in Kentucky, and they are probably correct, don't you think? There was a sinkhole in the baseball field, and as a result the Tigers where unable to practice there until it was filled in. This caused the Tigers to be without a field to practice on, and as a result they practiced in George Rogers Clark Park and at Kosair's field. Neither was a football field. Despite these obstacles they have defeated the 1st and 3rd ranked teams in 3A this year. Now that they are practicing on the baseball field it should be more condusive to better execution. But, it seems that even practicing on a nice new field doesn't always insure victory.

I've heard this tree story a few too many times. Are we expected to believe that with all of St.X's resources they are suffering kicking extra points because of a lack of goalposts? Seems to me they must have removed some during "project X". Couldn't they rig up some reasonable target with those? How about kicking over at Manual Stadium? How about at a gradeschool such as St.Agnes? Just wondering.

Well, as you probably know, never underestimate the penuriousness of a Catholic school. Indeed, the Tigers were kicking at "tree" goalposts. Necessity is the mother of invention! Since the baseball field now is covered with turf, they have a team "field" to practice on, and they also have temporary goalposts for kicking. Remember, unlike all other Jefferson county Catholic schools, X never received annual sizeable handouts from the Archdiocese. That may be one reason that they could never afford a stadium, and for about a half century have been a tenant of Manual. As to using a friendly Catholic grade school for kicking facilities, it is my understanding that they were all being used for grade school football practice. As I have said before, in the Catholic system football is second to God...but not far behind!

One problem: Male has never been known for their defense.

Well... I wouldn't say never. In 1967 they went an entire season and only surrendered 13 points. Ironically, they did not win state that year. They ended up 8-1-1.:thumb:

Agreed. Just looking for some additional data points for this discussion. JLo was Mr. Football Derek's Senior Year. Who won Mr. Basketball that year?

 

P.S. Still looking for where Bush finished in both polls (and Tim Couch for that matter).

I believe that he won Mr. Football in 1998. Thus, he would've graduated in 1999. Mr. Basketball in 1999 was Rick Jones, Scott Co. By the way, JLo was the fourth consecutive Mr. Football to sign with Kentucky at that time.

Here are a few more for consideration:

Jermaine Brown-Fairdale: Mr. Basketball in Kentucky in 1991; First team all-state and football in 1989. Has anyone other than Chris Lofton ever garnered honors this high and both sports?

Lonnel DeWalt-Bowling Green: First-team all-state in football and in basketball.

Ron Thomas-Thomas Jefferson: played pro basketball for the ABA Kentucky Colonels from 1972-1976, third team all-state football in 1967.

Elmore Stephens-Thomas Jefferson: first-team all-state football player 1969; all-state basketball player.

JaJuan Spillman-Pleasure Ridge Park-second-team all-state or in football in 2004 and all-state in basketball.

Mike Campbell-Butler: first-team all-state in football in 1969; excellent basketball player.

Maurice Grinter-Fairdale: third team all-state football player in 2004; all-state basketball player. Currently playing at University of Kentucky.

Douglas Beaumont-Male: current candidate for Mr. Football, first-team all-state 2005; excellent basketball player.

Clint Bacon-Manual: first-team all-state football 1961; excellent basketball player.

Frank Maddox-Moore: first-team all-state football 1989; all-state basketball. This guy was one of my favorites-he could really play both sports at a very high-level and for some reason got very little publicity.

Donta Smith-Oldham County: first-team all-state football 2001; all-state basketball. Drafted by the NBA. Currently playing pro basketball.

Ron Gathright was a second-team all-state running back for Thomas Jefferson in 1965. Wasn't he also all-state in basketball? Ron Garrison was second-team all-state running back for Seneca in 1965. Wasn't he also an all-stater in basketball?

^ Shaun was a great football player, but I don't remember him as also being a great basketball player as well. I think Diogenes is looking for the best Football/Basketball combination.

Correct. Otherwise I would have mentioned Brian Brohm.

Who is the best high school football/basketball player ever to play in Kentucky high school? I have a starter list below as food for thought.

Derek Smith-Fort Thomas Highlands

Michael Bush-Male

Chris West-Manual

Jerome Perry-Manual

Roni Robinson-Frankfort

Tim Couch-Leslie County

Any others?

I can remember just a few short weeks ago someone in the rock club said that they thought there would be a QB controversy at St. X this year between Wade and Zoller.....!! Well, after Friday night and last night, looks as if the controversy will be at trinity.... Petrino three INT's......against MBA. This kid was the mvp of the 4a state game last year. Threw three INT's all of last year.... Not to good a showing for a mr. football candidate.

Well...I saw him play as a freshman and as a JV and wrote him off each time. I saw him last September against X and wrote him off. But in December he was a world beater. I would not write him off just yet.

Wow, you win 47 - 0 and still find a way to yell at the coaches. I thought Trinity fans were bad. :lol: :thumb:

Never underestimate the fickleness of Catholic fans. During the past two or three years I have several times heard X fans criticize Glaser in the stands, despite X being ahead in the game and having lost only one regular season game to an in-state opponent in the last three years. I can also recall attending Trinity games during the 50 win streak and hearing fans criticize Lampley. (He didn't pass enough! Same criticism of Glaser).

Kat, where are the guys kicking at? Are they heading over to Manual, or has Coach Scott taken his film tower and transformed it into temporary uprights?

Buddy,

There are no field goal posts at any practice location. The kickers have been force to kick into large trees that surround the different practice locations. The kickers kick into the trees (to not lose the footballs). The kickers have not been able to kick much because of the many different practice locations.

My best guess is that Trinity was the best Catholic/Private football program at the time the Anti-Private sentiment began to take root. Additionally, Eastern's principal has no love lost for Trinity. Once again, this is just speculation, but if the Anti-Private uprising began in the mid late 90's (X's successful years) it may be different.

 

I'll be anxious to see this year if X's radio team has any "space issues" develop on road games.

Thanks for the update. Who knows, you could be right. It may be the "Eastern no love lost" angle. If so, what is the genesis of that spat?

Perhaps all BGPers can keep us abreast of any developing "space issues" this season.

Any answers?

No, but you seem somewhat knowledgeable about the program. Have you or your Trinity associates any ideas or speculations? To me , this is sort of a replay of last year's boycott controversy where public schools in Trinity's district would not play Trinity on any level but varsity, while DeSales, Holy Cross and X had a full schedule on all levels. That is what we not in the know are trying to determine- why do these things only happen to Trinity? I invite you or other Trinity fans to enlighten us. For many of us, it truly is a mystery.

I would also be interested in the rationale behind this. From what I understand, there are a number of public schools who do not permit their games against Trinity to be broadcast over the radio. To my knowledge, there is no public school that does not permit games against St. X to be broadcast. Is it only Trinity? How about Lexington Catholic, Covington Catholic, NCC, DeSales, Holy Cross and any other private schools? If they have radio broadcasts, do any of their public school opponents not permit their games to be broadcast over the radio? If it is only Trinity, what, if anything, do the public schools feel that Trinity has done differently than any number of private schools such as those listed above? For example, a public school may feel that if their game against Trinity is on the radio it will suppress physical attendance at the game. But, to my knowledge, no public school forbids their games be broadcast over the St. X radio network, so it does not seem logical that only the public schools playing against Trinity would prohibit the broadcast of their games over the radio.