From Jimmy Olson post in previous thread:

 

 

Don't really want to get into a p*.... match on this. But here is just a little info.

 

True to form, the supination angle of Lincecum's cutter lies somewhere between that of his fastball and slider, with just a slight tilt from a straight-forward fastball position. In theory, a pitcher can find several breaking-ball variations with respect to velocity and snap by toying with the angle of supination, and players such as Yu Darvish are able to add or subtract from velocity and break by adjusting the position of the forearm to create a handful of distinct breaking pitches. The difference between Lincecum’s cutter, slider, and curve ball is measured in degrees of supination.

 

Timmy's only off-speed offering is a splitter, for which he uses a claw-like grip with index and middle fingers spread outside the seams at the top of the horseshoe. Often labeled as a change-up, what distinguishes Lincecum's split from a traditional cambio is the lack of early pronation, with a fastball forearm-angle when the splitter comes out to play. In this case, the decreased velocity comes from a deep grip that increases the frictional forces between the pitching hand and the baseball. A typical change-up will involve pre-set pronation that goes beyond the two-seam fastball, with pitchers utilizing myriad grip patterns such as the circle-change in order to get a feel for the proper forearm angle. The change-up is a “feel” pitch that some pitchers struggle to capture, making it one of the toughest pitches to harness consistently.

 

Go to Baseball Prospectus | Raising Aces: Six Degrees of Supination to get your answer.

 

Quick quiz: What pitch is Roy Halladay throwing in the picture on the left? On the right?

 

 

 

In the end, it all boils down to semantics. Dan Haren throws a cutter that looks more like a typical slider, but I would not question Haren's choice of nomenclature, as he is the one with an intimate connection with the pitch. A pitcher's pet names for the arrows in his quiver might defy our commonly accepted archetypes of a pitch, but the labels are completely dependent on the player. Mechanically, a cutter is defined based on the pitcher's relative supination angles on his slider and fastball, but his own choice of terminology could come from grip, feel, velocity, trajectory, or the response that the pitch elicits from dejected batters as they walk back to the dugout.

 

At the National Pitching Association, we would advise pitchers to name their offerings based on the preferences of scouts and coaches, as there are certain pitch combinations that are viewed as favorable within the community of baseball evaluators. Often, a curveball would be re-dubbed a “power slider” in order to give a particular impression, and I have witnessed scouts who will grade a pitch based partly on the expectations created by the name attached to the offering. A player can name his slider “rosebud” for all I care, as long as it gets results.

 

Quiz Answer: On the left, Halladay is throwing a curve. On the right, he's throwing a cutter.

 

Ok, my reply:

 

I read through everything you posted.

 

Supination is not a position. It is a movement.

 

Let me also say this…

 

Supination is not a grip or arm angle. It is a movement. A rotation of the forearm.

 

Mr. Olsen thinks supination is a hand, grip, or arm position and it is not. It is the rotation of the forearm in the throwing motion that defines supination (or pronation).

 

supination /su•pi•na•tion/ (soo″pĭ-na´shun) [L. supinatio ] the act of assuming the supine position, or the state of being supine. Applied to the hand, the act of turning the palm forward (anteriorly) or upward, performed by lateral rotation of the forearm.

 

Notice it doesn’t say your hand is in a specific position. It defines supination as the “act of turning….”. In layman’s terms, this means taking your hand from a thumb up (shaking hands) position to your palm facing the sky. “Turning the palm…upward.”

 

Mr. Olson and the writer of that article he cited are describing grip positions and are not defining supination (rotation of the forearm). And there is absolutely zero proof in the Rivera video that shows supination. In fact the video only shows a simulation of his grip (consistent with your incorrect understanding of supination). It doesn’t show the throwing motion at all so to claim it as “proof” is silly. Further, the photo of Halladay doesn’t show the release of the ball and cannot be claimed by you or me to be proof of supination or pronation.

 

Regarding the Halladay photo, arm angle is not supination. Neither is gripping the ball off-center or on the side of the ball. Nor is gripping a curve and doing the karate chop.

 

For anyone reading this who wants to understand supination, let’s do a demo.

 

Put your throwing hand up in the position it would be if you were being sworn in to testify in court. Or think of a pitcher facing the plate, with his arm up in the throwing position with his palm facing the plate. Got that?

 

Now, drop your arm down and rotate your forearm so that you will be in a position to shake hands with someone. If you were on the mound (and right-handed), your hand would have moved from palm facing the plate to a position with your thumb up and palm facing first base. The shaking hands position. Got that too?

 

For a pitcher to take his throwing hand from the ‘swearing in’ position to the ‘shaking hands’ position, he is supinating. That is supination in the pitching motion. Just want to make that clear. The pitcher’s hand goes from palm facing the plate to thumb up with palm facing first base (for RH pitcher).

 

There are obviously variations to the throwing motion. However, gripping the ball on the side or dropping arm angles is NOT supination. Only moving from swearing in to shaking hands is supination. Or, if you’re gripping more to the side of the ball, supination would be turning your thumb or palm up toward the sky during the release of the ball.

 

Now, perhaps Mr. Olson can show us proof in another video of Rivera or Halladay that shows them rotate their forearm this way when throwing a cutter. Having watched tons of video of these guys I know they do not supinate on their cutters.

 

Supination is primarily a slider movement. That’s why you see so many slider guys needing Tommy John surgery. They “snap the wrist” or turn their hand around the outside of the ball. They turn their thumbs toward the sky. There are several ways to say it.

 

That’s way too much information for most people but if anyone if still curious about the Halladay photo, I’ll explain further.

 

Let’s demo again. Hold your hand up in the ‘swearing in’ position with your forearm in the vertical 12:00 position with your palm facing the imaginary home plate. Now, tilt your forearm away from your body to the 2:00 position with your palm still facing the plate. Did your forearm rotate to get to that position? No, of course it didn’t.

 

If you throw a fastball or a cut fastball from this position you will not supinate (rotate your forearm to get to a shaking hands position). A cutter is a fastball. Even if your grip is not right on top of the ball, you don’t rotate your forearm to throw the cutter. You release just like a regular fastball and you pronate (palm turns toward the ground).

 

If Mr. Olson or anyone else has some good video of a cutter then please post it. I looked through youtube and couldn’t find anything that’s close enough to use as a demo.

 

If you want an easy definition of a cutter, go back to this video:

 

Here's a decent explanation:

 

 

If Mo was getting around the ball (i.e. rotating the forearm and supinating on his cutter) the tell tale red dot of the seams would be visible to the hitter. He throws it like a regular fastball with slight adjustment to his grip.

For any parents here that worry about their son pitching, supination is what you want to avoid. The slider is the primary pitch that uses supination. It’s a hard twisting of the forearm/hand around the side of the ball to “snap” it and make it break. You want to avoid this type of breaking pitch.

 

Here is what supination looks like:

 

 

 

What about the curve ball?

 

The proper, safe way to throw the curve ball is what is commonly called the karate chop. Ok, let’s do a demo so you can visualize what I mean.

 

Grab a baseball before we start.

 

First, take your thowing hand and put it in the “shaking hands” position. For a right handed pitcher your arm should be extended with your thumb up and palm facing first base.

 

Now, make a karate chop or Florida State type chopping motion with your arm. You don’t twist your arm, it just goes straight up and down with your palm facing first base the whole time. This is the motion you use to safely throw a curve ball.

 

Ok, stop chopping and put your hand back to the original shaking hands position.

 

Grab the baseball and curl your index and middle fingers around the front of the ball (side of ball closest to home plate) and put your thumb around the back side of the ball.

 

Here is what it should look like:

 

 

 

 

This is what your grip should look like (approximately).

 

Now that you’re holding the ball this way, do the karate chop movement. Your palm should face first base the whole time until release of the ball.

 

As the ball is rolling over your index finger on the way to the plate, your hand will naturally pronate. Your palm will go from facing first base to facing the ground.

 

This is the well known 12-6 curve ball. If you want a bit of tilt to the curve, you can make a slight change to your arm angle but you do not change the chopping motion and you do not supinate (rotate the forearm so your palm faces the sky).

 

I hope that helps.

Nice, very clear explanations.

 

I always explained the hand motion for a slider as that of opening a door knob. Definitely supination and puts a lot of strain on the arm/elbow, most certainly in younger age players.

BlueTip, we will just have to agree to dis-agree on this.