CKSportsFan

I'm not a CH fan...but you have to give it to the kid. Beat Meade..Won the district after like 22 years..undefeated season..won two playoff games and was MVP of the Best of the Bluegrass. His coach wins coach of the year and the other key players end up 1st Team all area and his RB makes HM. He ends up 2d team all area. Go figure..

Considering Meade County QB John Wilson was voted on by the coaches as Area Offensive Player of the Year, then he should be first team. It would look bad for the Overall Offfensive Player of the Year to be second team.

Only one first-team QB.

Thus, Krupinski was second team (and got nothing All-State wise).

Which meant North Hardin's Bankhead -- who finished in the top four in the state in passing yards per game regardless of class -- was honorable mention All-Area (he got nothing All-State wise).

As good as Wilson, Krupinski and Bankhead were, it's tough to vote for them for All-State. Especially when you only get two picks. And to vote for them over Mr. Football Sindelar and other guys would be bad.

However, Wilson was also a great safety. Nearly first kid in area history to sweep Offensive and Defense player of the year in the same season (he finished second on defense, but was overwhelmingly the top safety).

It was much easier for Wilson to earn All-State on defense because you vote for far more safeties than you do QBs.And he got second team All-State (plus, you can't make All-State both ways anyway -- limited to one side of the ball, which therefore honors more players).

How many media members around the state you think would have voted for Krupinski or Wilson or Bankhead?

And as good as Krupinski and Wilson and Bankhead were, I'm not so sure they were better than Zuberer of O'Cath and Ryan of LexCath. And Zuberer and Ryan couldn't crack the team either.

It's clear the coaches themselves didn't think Wilson-Krupinski-Ryan-Zuberer were All-State stone cold lead pipe locks.

Then what is the point of this bylaw? To make sure football teams post stats and that's it?

Heck of a lot more stats in baseball/softball.

Football you have four offensive (rushing, passing, receiving, scoring), kicking (XP, field goals) and three defensive (tackles, fumbles, interceptions).

Baseball and softball can take forever to decipher a book. Ks, Walks, Runs allowed, Earned Runs allowed, Wins, Losses, Walks, Hit by pitch, Total hits, 1Bs, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, RBIs, SBs, Runs scored.

The KHSAA record book includes most of those. Plus, far more rain outs/cancellations in baseball/softball (you play one a week in football, and soccer stats are goals and assists and that's pretty much it).

KHSAA is also using basketball as a transfer backup. Meaning if a team reports stats and reports a player plays in a varsity game, that player is now bound by the transfer rules. If a JV or freshman kids never plays varsity (dressing is OK, but it's actually getting on the court that matters), he or she could transfer no questions asked because he/she never established varsity residency.

It definitely looks eastern and central areas are heavily skewed (9 for pulaski??) While Owensboro has 3, they missed on not giving Airus Phillups at least HM as a safety. Owensboro Catholic had the best statistical QB in the state and he didn't get an HM??? Are you kidding me? If this kid were at Highlands he'd be leading them to the state championship every year he was there. He's an incredible athlete and plays bball, football, baseball. Owensboro Catholic had 2 GREAT LB's with around 160 tackles each (Reed and Boarman) - not even HM? That's ridiculous!

 

I think there are gripes to go around but this is like most polls - biased to some degree.

Not too much bias if other O'Cath players made it too.

The problem with Zuberer is this: While you vote for 10 (TEN) Offensive linemen (five first team, five second team), and 8 (EIGHT) defensive linemen (four first team, four second team), you vote for a grand total of 2 QBS (one first team, one second team).

A first-place vote for an OL gets you 10 points (since you vote for 10), but a first-place vote for a QB only gets you 2 (since you vote for 2).

I could name more QBs than OL or DL, yet more OL and DL make the team (since it is not broken up by C, LG, LT, RG, RT, DE, NG, DT).

So it was much easier for his fellow Aces to make the team than it was for Zuberer.

Koree Krupinski of CH (2013 Area Offensive Player of the Year, 2014 Area Offensive Runner-up, 2014 Louisville vs. State offensive MVP) didn't get HM either. Nor did Reece Ryan.

Lots of good QBs don't make honorable mention (same thing for decent kickers and punters since you only vote for 2 each as well).

Print media is a dying profession. Not sure why anyone cares about a poll put out by them? Wait for the BGP Poll! :thumb:

The BGP team is always solid.

It also goes last most of the time, which means it can wait on the LHL and CJ and AP teams to be released and the Senior All-Star teams to be announced.

While the AP team was just released, votes were done a while ago.

When you go last, you better be the best. Because you can see what those before you did well and you can learn from their mistakes.

Does the AP release the actual vote totals? Would this vote be done by the same 24 voters that selected the all-state team?

 

Would be interesting to see if the vote was close?

They don't release it (Mr. Football votes or All-State).

It would be nice if they did, but even the voters themselves don't know what the final tallies were.

Most of the time when someone asks about football D-I scholarship offers, they mean FBS preferably to FCS. And actual scholarship compared to walk on.

And NO PAPER (outside of the LHL or CJ themselves) have ANYTHING to do with LHL Class of the Commonwealth or Courier-Journal Coaches' All-State (which is ran by the CJ, but voted on by the Coaches' themselves). Not News-Enterprise. Not BG Daily News. Not Pikeville Appalachian News-Express. Not Somerset Commonwealth Journal. Not The State Journal of Frankfort. Not The News-Graphic of Georgetown. Not the Kentucky New Era of Hopkinsville.

As far as AP All-State, gonna take far more than just the E'town paper to get a kid first or second team. Or just the BG paper. Or just the Hopkinsville paper. Or just the Ashland paper (which apparently chose not to vote). Obviously the E'town paper doesn't have near as huge pull/power as you think it does since ZERO E'town-area kids made first team and only two made second team ... ONE FROM MEADE COUNTY (your own school).

If it's about making honorable mention, eh. There's posters on here (see previous pages on this thread) who suggest honorable mention:

- Takes more than one vote

- Is done away with completely.

Either way, that doesn't help an shafted/forgotten/excluded player.

But to answer Jason Frakes' question, ZERO players (that we know of) have viable FBS scholarship offers were left off the CJ team. At least no one has provided a name for such snubbed player who is sitting on an FBS offer.

Also: John Wilson made AP All-State. ... What school is he from (hint: NOT from Hardin County)?

Can you make a walkon and make an impact? Sure. Ravi Moss in basketball for UK fans.

Many kickers are walkons (because schools don't want to waste a full-ride on a specialty position).

You can keep playing the game and further learn the game as a walkon. Get to travel. Get bigger, faster, stronger.

But in the big scheme of things, those walkons are going to have less of an impact -- either because there are more scholarship players than there are walkons, or because the scholarship players are better than the walkons -- than the players the schools decided were worth the money (given actual scholarships).

But a QB headed to a FBS program in a "Power 5" Conference is a world apart than a LB, FB, TE walking on at an obscure FCS school who few people could name the conference it is in, the team's nickname or even the city (or state) the school is located.

That's like equating someone given a basketball scholarship to play at Louisville is the same as walking on at Radford or Quinnipiac or McNeese State (you still get to be on the team, right? You still get to practice, right? You still get a ring on the off chance the team does anything, right?).

Um, no.

Of course, maybe a walkon becomes the next J.J. Watt or Clay Mathews or Logan Mankins or Jordy Nelson or Santana Moss.

But most walkons don't have that type of "physical freak" specimen build, glue-like hands or lightning-strike speed, either.

At least not walkons from Kentucky high schools.

Who are five walkons -- in the history of football -- from Kentucky high schools who had a major impacts?

Back to my point...

 

John Hardin had only on player make 1st and/or 2nd Team... Highlands fans sees the numerous "Honorable Mention" John Hardin players and immediately take exception and scream FOUL.

 

The point is valid... there is no doubt Highlands had players just as deserving as the JH players mentioned... but the issue comes in the fact A) One Media member casting a biased ballot put those JH players there B) One Media member not casting a biased ballot entirely kept the additional Highlands players off C) If Ethan Cobb was the only JH player on the team shown (2nd team OL) then the controversy probably wouldn't exist.

 

Once again it is the inclusion of the Honorable Mention...and the fact they are mentioned is because of one biased vote... that creates the controversy.

In past years, it took MULTIPLE votes to make honorable mention (not just from one local paper).

That might have changed ...

I am unfamiliar with the Cantrell Ratings. Can someone please give some insight into what goes into these rankings?

It's a computer-ranking system ran by the Lexington Herald Leader (similar to the Litkenhous of the Courier-Journal).

Not an arbitrary human vote by any means.

Record, strength of schedule and point differential (close losses and blowout wins help) all play a factor. Games against non-KY teams do not count (because it's hard to rate them).

The problem to me is knowingly putting out a product that is flawed from the very start. You have no representation from NKY or NEKY on your selection committee, so the answer is to simply exclude them altogether? You have about 50% of the voters from the Western part of the state and thus have an overflow of kids from that area.

 

I believe there were 5 or 6 kids on this team from John Hardin whom Highlands put a running clock on rather easily. Pretty pitiful if you ask me.

The representation is an issue, however it is a fairly recent once. Up until 2012, NKY had more than dozen AP All-State selections every year. When the Cincy/NKy papers merged into Cincy papers first, that changed.

Since the Cincy papers aren't going to pay for Kentucky AP membership -- I do NOT blame them, they already pay their Ohio dues -- now they don't vote.

That needs to be looked at. If you do, though, you're also inviting the Madison Indiana paper (covers Mason County), a West Virginia paper (covers Belfry), a Tennessee paper from Clarksville (covering Fort Campbell) and an Illinois paper which covers some WKY schools.

There is NEKY representation, but Ashland apparently chose not to vote this year. Ashland has had plenty of kids make it in the past, so this is not a yearly concern.

I'm in favor of a committee All-State team.

Don't know where or when they would meet though (maybe the last KHSAA meeting of the year or the first KHSAA meeting in January)? That way they could do it and let the KHSAA know immediately (and media members of the committee could cover the KHSAA meeting if newsworthy).

However, more All-Star Teams and All-State Teams gives more kids different ways to be honored (if they are shafted on all six though ...)

CKSportsFan...now it has to be FBS..not FCS and has to be scholarship not walk on or preferred. I would say to that any player that gets any offer from a D1 program should be at least HM on any State list.

Being asked to walk on at a FCS school is not the same -- not remotely the same -- as what Harris, Sindelar, Reece Ryan, Quinton Baker, etc., have. Meaning they go to a big-time school, do not pay and have a better shot to play.

Walk-on offers mean little. Still paying a ton to go to school. Very little chance to see the field. May not get same stuff as scholarship players do. Considering them the same as players with multiple full-ride FBS scholarships who have maxed out their official visits is crazy. No coach or media member worth his salt would equate the two.

Former E'town QB Kyle Todd and former John Hardin TE Chris White both walked on at Louisville. White played a little. Not sure Todd ever saw a snap (he transferred to a JUCO to try to get another D-I or D-II school to look at him). However, doesn't mean any all-State team whiffed on Todd and White (who weren't listed on many All-Star or All-State teams) their senior years because Todd and White walked on at a FBS school. Neither one had a major impact.

In many cases, it would be better for a kid to take a D-II offer than to walk on at a D-I program (even a small FCS one).

Also, size has a lot to do with it. Ask Meade County coach Larry Mofield about Chris Roe and Nick Stinnett. Colleges loved Stinnett's size and build, but Stinnett didn't have a the grades (and other things) to be able to play at the D-I level.

Roe, a two-time Area Defensive Player of the Year (even NFL player Brandon Deaderick didn't do that), had the grades. Had the technique. Had the attitude. But did NOT have the size. Mofield practically had to beg in-state NAIA programs to give Roe a look.

So D-I FCS and FBS and D-II offers are not the end-all, be-all, but they are a good starting point.

FCS walk-on is about a 4-of-5 on the D-I scale (FBS scholarship, FCS scholarship, FBS walk-on, FCS walk-on, play for non-scholarship FCS such as Morehead or Dayton or San Diego or Valpo). And I might be mis-ranking the Ivy League in there as it has produced some NFL players.

Would this work for a true all-state team? Have coaches nominate kids. To nominate, it requires a write up as to why a certain kid deserves consideration. Then, you have a third party KHSAA association look thru all the nominations by position. You dwindle down the to the top 10 (just a guess) at each position. Stats and accomplishments should help to filter this pretty quickly at first glance. Then start to dissect those 10 much closer, looking at that year's stats and accomplishment, who they played and how they made their team better. Seems like it would be worth the effort in comparison to the effort these kids put in to work at their skill.

 

Then you post the programs that nominated kids or participated. You don't have to post who they nominated, but whether they participated...even if they didn't have any nominations and they at least got back to you saying so. This would hold the programs accountable for making sure they at least had a say and a chance to nominate their top kids.

 

I know some will say, well you'll have coaches writing up every kid and then it becomes hard to manage. My guess is that if you require a write up, that a coach is not going to take the time to write up all his kids. He will most likely take his top kids and write them up. And if a coach did write up all the kids, it would become very obvious very early in the process and it would most likely hurt any of his kids that actually had a shot because the committee would use the ole "consider the source" philosophy when evaluating one of his kids.

 

If we are relying on journalist to truly evaluate talent across the state, it will never be correct. Nothing against them, but it's just may not be as important to some as it is others and that's not fair to the kids. I also say you can't count on the coaches, because some hold grudges and some would never vote for anyone outside their region. I know that's not right, but it happens.

The C-J team is much like that, but A LOT easier.

Coaches nominate (without having to write grafs and statements on each and every kid they nominate).

Coaches vote.

Except just about half of them do (which means more than 40 percent -- sometimes closer to 50 or 60 percent -- do NOT).

The BGP team is the only one left that could be considered the most accurate, but I'm guessing people will have issues with it, too:

C-J COACHES: Not enough coaches voting.

AP MEDIA: Not enough spread-out representation.

LHL COACHES + PAPER: Seniors only, not all positions represented. Plus, only 20 or 22 spots.

GLFCA SENIOR ALL-STARS: Rest of state need not apply. Underclassmen? Who cares!

EAST VS. WEST SENIORS (TEAM LOUISVILLE VS. TEAM KENTUCKY): Louisville gets half of representation? C'Mon Man! And youngsters (Fr-So-Jr), bye bye.

KENTUCKY VS. TENNESSEE BORDER BOWL: Perceived as too EKY. Some kids turn down because of basketball (and therefore not listed). Some kids turn down because they've already played in previous all-star games (therefore not listed). Some kids not nominated by their coach (therefore not listed).

At least six all-star/all-state teams have been announced and none have been perfect.

BGP could change that, but that's an awfully hard task.

I believe Murrer (Cov Cath) and Johnson (Dixie). May be more. Both from NKY.

Murrer was second-team defense by the Courier-Journal, so he was NOT left off the Courier-Journal team.

Branden Johnson of Dixie Heights was second team DL, so he was NOT left off the Courier-Journal team.

Hedger from Dixie, Olmstead from SK. No question, NKy was shafted in this list!

Olmstead was honorable mention All-State by the C-J.

Hedger wasn't listed, but it's harder for TEs to make it when they're lumped in with WR or OL and not by themselves (same with FB when they're lumped in with RB).

According to yahoo, Hedger has three offers (Austin Peay, Hampton and Holy Cross), but none from the 70+ FBS schools (when Jason Frakes was talking about D-I, he was probably referring to FBS and not FCS which non-scholarship Morehead, non-scholarship Dayton and the non-scholarship Ivy League schools play in).

Big difference between Auburn and Austin Peay or between Hawaii and Hampton.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Andrew-Hedger-163580/print

Let me rephrase that for Jason Frakes: How many kids with FBS offers (NOT preferred walk-on, but actual scholarships) did NOT make the Courier-Journal All-State Team as selected by the coaches?

Not talking about the AP team (which had only 2 NKY kids).

We're talking about the C-J team (which had far more NKY kids).

How many kids have FBS offers didn't make the C-J team (completely left off, as in not even honorable mention) as voted on by the coaches themselves?

Numbers are real. Plus Venneman played against a tougher schedule. Like Johnny Football in the NFL, the next level is a different game. A lot of scholarahips are based on potential. This was based on High School, not college. There is a big of enough difference in stats that Venneman should be first team.

2014 KY Football Stat Leaders

-- Lexington Christian's Nick Whitman was third in the state overall in rushing yards per game AND third in the state in points per game and didn't get anything.

-- North Hardin's Isaiah Bankhead was third in the state overall in passing yards per game and didn't get anything.

-- Fairview's Alex Roy was fourth in the state overall in passing yards per game and didn't get anything.

-- Michael Vaeth of Hancock County and Devan Ables of Magoffin County were both in the top four in receiving yards per game and didn't get anything.

Stats are far from the end-all, be-all.

Several running backs had more yards or TDs than Harris ... think they're all better than him?

When players that hold D1 offers are listed as honorable mentions behind others that are "just" good high school players the team is flawed IMO. The biggest slight in this AP All State team is the complete omission of Nick Coffey of Russell County who is a D1 WKU commit. He didn't even make honorable mention. Any "all-state" team that does not include the states D1 talent (that hold actual offers) on their first or second team loses a lot of credibility IMO.

One of Coffey's problems is his team was horrible this season.

Bunch spoiling a good apple, IMO (instead of a bad apple spoiling a good bunch).

How Ray Zuberer didn't make Honorable Mention is beyond me. Put up 56 TD passes and over 3600 yards in 12 games.

 

Led the state in passing yards, yards per game, and TD passes in a season. No Honorable Mention.

If I vote for Sindelar (Mr. Football, D-I guy) and Hoge (D-I guy), I DON'T have room for Zuberer on my ballot.

Each voter only votes for two QBs and that's it.

Krupinski from Central Hardin (undefeated regular season) and John Wilson (Hardin-LaRue-Meade Area offensive player of the year as selected by coaches/newspaper) didn't make it either (granted Wilson made it at DB).

Krupinski was the offensive MVP of the East-West Senior All-Star Game (Team Kentucky vs. Team Louisville) a few weeks ago.

QB Reese Ryan didn't make it either and he was considered a preseason Mr. Football contender.

Lots of deserving QBs. Only two votes per voter (and I would think many voted for Sindelar or Hoge ... or both).

2010

http://bluegrasspreps.com/ky-football-high/ap-all-state-214238.html

The 2010 Associated Press Kentucky HS football all-state team | The Courier-Journal | courier-journal.com

"LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) - The 2010 Kentucky High School All-State first and second teams, as selected by 13 media representatives from across the state."

There were 12 kids from NKY to make it in 2010. 15 in 2011. 15 in 2012. 2 in 2013. 2 in 2014.

So it's not a every year thing. It's the "last 2 years" thing. And 2 years ago is when NKY AP membership took a huge dip.

I meant that AP membership overall is dropping, not the number that voted. That's why I said 24 seemed like a pretty good number.

There were 15 voters in 2011, too. Three straight years (11-12-13) with 15 voters, and then 24 this year.

That's a HUGE climb.

Unfortunately, not many from NKY.

Another thing to consider:

Not only do the AP members vote, they also nominate (because let's face it, listing every starter in the state would be a hard ballot to wade through).

So with few/no NKY representation to vote, that means there is few/no chance NKY kids even get nominated.

It also stands to reason that since each paper/station gets very few nominees per position, they're NOT going to waste it on nominating someone 1-2 hours away. Why should they?

Write-in voting (scrapping the nomination process all together) would be even worse.

I've been through that before. You have people who get grades wrong, positions wrong, confuse schools (Pulaski instead of Pulaski Southwestern, Male instead of Manual) and forget kids graduated.

About the only solution to the "No NKY kids" issue is to get more NKY AP votes somehow.

Because in 2011 and 2012 (I posted the teams for those years), there were more than a dozen NKY kids each year.

It's since 2012 this has been an issue. Of course, 2012 was when the KY Enquirer/KY Post merged or shut down or combined with the Cincy paper(s). And it makes little sense for the Ohio TV stations/papers, which provide plenty of highlights/coverage to pay to join the Kentucky AP when their dues double (Ohio + Kentucky) but there's not much return on investment.

The Madison Indiana paper covers Mason County, Ky.

The Clarksville Tennessee paper covers Fort Campbell and other Southern KY teams.

But neither has an AP Kentucky vote (which is what NKY is going through). Mason would have more All-State kids if Madison could vote.

Not sure what the answer is.

Maybe there can be a media All-State vote (including Web forums) which also includes crossover/border media (Cincy TV, Cincy paper, Madison Indiana paper, Clarksville Tennessee paper/TV).

There's no easy fix.

And there's no All-State team which makes every person happy.

#Rhetorical

Here's the link to the 2012 All-State AP team:

The AP's 2012 Kentucky All-State Teams | College Football

There were quite a few NKY kids on it since 2012.

2011: 15 or 16 (Nussbaum listed at 2 positions)

2012: 15 (I think).

2013: 2 (I think).

2014: 2.

It seems since 2012, but not every year.

Players had to be nominated to be voted on. If no one in the northern Kentucky area nominated anyone, then those players were not available for others to vote for. I saw that 24 AP members voted. Wished there were more, but it seems like AP membership is dwindling so that's probably a pretty good number.

You might want to check that.

2014: 24 votes

2013: 15 votes

2012: 15 votes

2011: 15 votes

2013

"LOUISVILLE — The 2013 Associated Press Kentucky High School All-State first and second teams, as selected by 15 media representatives from across the state:"

2012

The AP's 2012 Kentucky All-State Teams | College Football

"LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) — The 2012 Associated Press Kentucky High School All-State first and second teams, as selected by 15 media representatives from across the state:"

2011

http://www.wtvq.com/mostpopular/story/Kentucky-high-school-football-AP-All-State-teams/d/story/Uy6HndfB3Ey0gcDokUMmkw

"LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) - The 2011 Kentucky High School All-State first and second teams, as selected by 15 media representatives from across the state:"

I am pretty sure there are no NKY members in the state AP.

You might be correct.

Couldn't recall how the TV stations and newspaper fell. My guess is Ohio, since they would have to pay twice (Ohio dues, Kentucky dues) to be considered KY.

And twice the dues don't get you twice the stuff.

Thus, NKY kids suffer.

It was posted on this site that Venneman was one of the seven finalists for Mr. Football.

 

A Mr. Football finalist is an HM player. A bit disconnected.

Not disagreeing, but things to consider:

1) Voter take care of "their area" first. Meaning a Pikeville voter (Appalachian News-Express paper or WMYT TV is going to vote for someone from Shelby Valley, Pikeville or Pike Central before he or she votes for a NKY kid).

2) Voters don't have unlimited votes. They're actually very few. You vote for either three WR or six.

3) There's a significant lack of NKY media presence. Which means far less votes. In EKY, for example, Pikeville has two (paper, TV station), Middlesboro has one, Harlan has one, Corbin has one, Paintsville has one, Somerset has one.

Bowling Green has at least two (WBKO TV, Daily News newspaper). Mayfield has two (Mayfield Messenger paper, Mayfield TV station). Same for Paducah.

WKY has a ton of votes (Henderson, Hopkinsville, Madisonville, Mayfield, Owensboro, Paducah and how you classify Bowling Green).

Part of NKY's lack of player representation goes hand-in-hand with its lack of Associated Press media members for NKY.

How did some of those guys get snubbed? Landon Young and Alex Veneman. I saw both in person and I am surprised they were left out. Really think Veneman deserves more publicity for the year he had

Young and Veneman weren't snubbed. Both made honorable mention.

Which OL making first or second team do you want to knock off to make sure Young makes it?

Same for Venneman. Which WR needs to be demoted to make Venneman second team? Which receivers (plural) need to be knocked down to make Venneman first team?