Sports Fanatic

Just a casual observation here....

The fact that a middle school aged kid has "handlers" makes me sick to my stomach.

What's next? Will we have "handlers" and AAU coaches in delivery rooms looking for the next prospect they can latch onto and leech off of?

Originally posted by H

No double standard. Simply because, I would argue, students in the best public schools have just as many opportunities to fulfill their potential (whether it be on the athletic field, in the classroom, or later in life) as students in private schools. The opportunity comes from individual effort, not from the size of the tuition bill.

 

On the other hand, the Ahrens' decision was clear cut: Which school gives you the best chance to develop and showcase your quarterback skills? Not St X or Trinity. Maybe today their choices would have been different.

How is that not a double standard?

On the one hand you say a student can leave a private school environment for whatever reason if he or she thinks they will better flourish in the public school environment, but if a student in a public schools thinks he/she has a better opportunity in a private school after attending public schools there is something wrong with their decision making. What about the vast majority of students that for whatever reason are not able to get into, as you put it, the "best" public schools. You have addressed in other threads how hard it is to get into Male and that student athletes get no preferential treatment in admission. Just for the sake of this discussion lets say I agree with you, I'll even extend that to the other "best" public high schools (for this discussion only). How many students apply to Male or Manual or Ballard or PRP etc. each year that are turned down? On the other hand if you apply to Trinity and arrange to pay the tuition you get in. Contrary to what some believe no one is turned away. It is then up to the student to follow schools guidelines to remain in school. Maybe there are parents out there who do not want to put something as important as their childrens education to an enrollment lottery or some arbitrary quota and are willing to pay to insure they get their kids into a "better" school. And like the Ahrens' maybe there are kids who go to Trinity or X just because they feel they can better reach their athletic goals there. How is that a bad thing?

Originally posted by ram95

And of course you have documention to dispute Oxnards claim. Geez stop acting like this is a federal case no one here is accusing anyone of breaking any rules or laws! Both Oxnard and I are Catholics and we have access to the same sources you do. Oxnard is alumni of St.X for cripes sake. Stop being so defensive.

 

As far as the Ahren's boyes go, ok that is two Brothers, got anymore. If so I could also start a list as well if you like of JCPS students that were stars for T or X going back ten years shall we start that or will you just admit T and X get more stars out of JCPS than vice versa. I am game either way:thumb:

The fact that Oxnard is a Xavarian makes me more suspicious of his claims. I think that he and other Tiggers would like nothing better then to see Trinity get a black eye. I don't know or understand why you find it necessary to rake me over the coals like this but so be it. As I recall the person making a claim is usually the one burdened to prove their claims.

Review my initial post, I clearly stated that I had no statistics to back up my assertion. However you asked for examples:

Originally posted by ram95

On the point of Catholic Schools giving public schools a bunch of star atheletes list them. You can't, show some numbers or examples

I may not be the sharpest tack in the box but I think I provided exactly what you requested. Besides, (and I may not have stated this as clearly as intended, if so, my bad) I intended to convey that more total students (not just star athletes) leave private schools and enter public high schools then vice versa. Again, I will freely admit that I have no proof of that, it is only an assumption.

Originally posted by H

Both players ended up being star quarterbacks. Would either player have done as well as they did if they had gone to X or T (who were both running stale, run-oriented offenses at the time these kids made their high school choices)? I think not.

 

Why you think they left the Catholic school system?

I was just responding to the assertion that I could not name star athletes that left the catholic school system for public schools. Of course we all know that the coaches at Male or Ballard never did anything to "attract" these two young men to their respective schools don't we. :thumb:

You made the point that the Ahren's boys left the private school system because they had a better chance of fulfilling their potential at their chosen (not mandated) public schools. Does that same argument not apply to those athletes that chose to play for a private school after being in the public school system or are you advocating a double standard?

Originally posted by Oxnard

Bert noted earlier that the Archdiocese did not support trinity and that since 1994, they have been a separate entity. I also thought this was the case until recently when I found out that $6,400,000 was contributed by Archbishop Kelly to trinity to finance their latest expansion plans and stadium renovation. The magnitude of this "non-alum" donation shocked me, especially in light of the fact that he did not assist Holy Rosary when their alums, students, and supporters had raised $800,000 of the $1,000,000 needed to keep the school open. Most of this money is the result of previous and current donations to the Archdiocesan Fund, which is collected from parisheners at all the Catholic Churches. I don't think that many of us knew when we made our contributions that this much money was being allocated to a football stadium and other academic and non-academic facilities at trinity high school. This doesn't seem right. :irked:

Of course you have documentation.

Originally posted by ram95

On the point of Catholic Schools giving public schools a bunch of star atheletes list them. You can't, show some numbers or examples.

Gerry and Andy Ahrens

Originally posted by dcard

" Financial Aid" is available especially if you run a 4.5 or are 6' 3" and weigh 240.

In what was an other wise well thought out and intelligent post that presented a possible justification for the JCPS position why did you feel the need to insert this line? Of course you can back up your contention that athletic ability has an influence on how finincial aid is awarded at Trinity and st. Xavier, don't you?

Originally posted by dcard

Think about this. TaShawn McBroom came from a public school. If he goes to one of those schools think how much more competitive that school becomes. Would Trinity still have been good without him? Most definitely but that school that TaShawn went to would have that one player that could have put them over the top. Given them the recognition to get the school's name in the paper to start attracting more kids.

Wow, that's putting a lot on the shoulders of an eighth grader.

One kid could have been the savior of a public school's athletic program. Did you ever consider that maybe Tayshawn's parents made the sacrafices necassary to put their son in Trinity because they felt he would be in a better educational environment then if he had stayed in the public school system? Conversely, since you seem to have a problem with kids going from public middle to private high school how do you chime in on kids who leave catholic schools after 8th grade to go to public schools? If public school kids should be off limits to private schools coaches then shouldn't kids in the CSAA be out of bounds for a public schools coach? I would venture to say (and this is just conjecture, I have no data to back it up) that more kids leave the catholic system and go to public high schools then vice versa.

Originally posted by LvlleTrack

I guess im just beating my head against the wall telling you that its happening now. If you need more proof maybe some of the Trinity players can tell you who is and who is not on their schedule for next year. This means at all levels Frosh , JV and Varsity. I dont think its going to matter to the larger schools public and private. To be honest id like to know what the big deal is. They will have to meet in playoffs, and this is what really counts.

You are correct. It is already happening. I just think the powers that be in Jefferson County are trying to keep this quieter then their Fayette County counterparts.

Before anyone goes WAY OFF about the evil Catholic schools invading the public middle schools (I know you didn't Ram95 but trust me someone will soon) I want to relate the fact that I distinctly remember the guidence counselors from Southern High School visiting my very Catholic elementary school extolling the virtues of their school. This was not recently either it was about 30 years ago, well before the days of open enrollment.

Originally posted by stick1

it's frustrating being a coach outside of Lville and seeing your best athletes being openly recruited by a private school that doesn't have to play by the same rules as the public schools because they are private.

But they do play by the same rules, those establised by the KHSAA.

The rules that apply to the private schools that allow students from outside their county, or state for that matter, play on their teams apply to the public schools as well. Some independent school districts allow students from outside their district to attend their schools if they pay tuition. If your school (or district) dosen't allow that then your school (or district) is limiting themselves. How fair is it to penalize a school, or schools, for abiding by the rules (as established by the KHSAA) because another school, or schools, chooses not to take advantage of every resource they could have under those same rules.

This is hypocracy at it's finest (or worst).

Schools like Male, Ballard and PRP can put a strangle hold on one or more sports and beat all other public school competition and that is just peachy. When are the oh so concerned powers that be in Jefferson County going to start holding those programs hostage by refusing to play them?

All I have to say is if the public schools wanted to really throw gasoline on the fire and provide even more motivation for Trinity and X they just did it. Ask the guys at Easten what it was like playing Trinity after their principal and AD canned the frosh and JV games.

This is not going to be pretty.

Originally posted by brudawg

Ok then, what can public school's do? Give scholarships to an already free school? Sounds like a great idea!

You seem to advocate a position that if someone recieves finincial aid he/she should not play sports. Since the aid at Trinity, X, etc. is need based would you extend this to kids at public schools that are on free or reduced lunch programs? That is also a need based program.

Originally posted by brudawg

I am just say Trinity and St.X because thats who this topic is about, and also pretty much the only non-public schools in jefferson county.

What about?

1. DeSales

2. Holy Cross

3. Kentucky Country Day

4. Christain Academy of Louisville

Originally posted by H

True Tony grew up in Glasgow before he MOVED to Louisville, but about the tuition part: what coloring book did you read that in?

He moved to Louisville...Did his family move with him?

Austinman...

Trinity, like all schools in Jefferson County, recruits students. With open enrollment they have to.

Trinity has a finincial aid program in place to help students with finincial need. So do public schools, it's called the free lunch program. Regardless of what the belief may be athletics have absolutely nothing to do with who gets aid.

And I honestly believe that if Trinity did not have the tradition of success that it has these factors would not make a difference. It's a whole lot easier to make a teenager give up a large part of his time when he knows there is a very good chance he will compete for a state championship.

You have never, ever heard me say that the numbers at Trinity don't help, what I said that it was only one factor of many.

Originally posted by Davis

What is your point SF? What does making gross exagerations do except show that you do not want to carry on an intellectual debate?

I was trying to make two points.

First, regardless of any argument any Trinity fan makes there are those who will never accept anything short of their belief that the only reason that Trinity is so successful is numbers.

Second, I was trying to sound as absurd as possible because IMHO all of the talk about numbers takes away from one very important fact. The men (coaches and players) that represent Trinity on the football field give a huge part of themselves to be as successful as they are and threads that state that they would not be successful without the numbers is an insult to the hard work that they do. And before anyone starts the other accusatiuons, no I am not saying that public school teams don't work hard, although I think you would be hard pressed to find one that works any harder in the off season and pre-season then Trinity.

Yes, its a number game. Large numbers give Trinity the ability to have full scout teams both offensively and defensively. It lets them platoon every position so no one goes both ways, although exceptions have and will be made to that as needed. But that is just a portion of the reason for Trinity's success. The biggest reason IMHO is preparation. The coaching staff does an outstanding job of making sure the players are ready when they walk on the field.

I throw my hands up in the air and submit.

Our secret is out.

LSU, flaget, rockmom etc. we may as well confess.

Trinity in reality has over 10,000 young men on campus. They come from coast to coast and are housed in our dormitory complex. Trinity was the first school in Jefferson County to start a house system I believe. They are all on full scholarships and in fact we pay most of them to come to Trinity.

We never practice, we don't need to. We simply line up 11 players and if they can't get the job done we just put 11 more in. We keep changing until we find 11 that can make the plays. We went through almost 400 players (we kept 300 or so in the locker room) during the Male game. They won't have anything to do with football again until our first scrimmage in August.

Our coaches don't teach the game, they dont have to. As I stated before they just constantly change players because of the large numbers until they find ones to make plays. They also never prepare for an opponent, they don't have to. With the huge numbers we have it is not a problem finding someone who can play better then the person they line up across from.

Originally posted by austinman1

He has touched on a subject that the Catholic schools hate to discuss. There is an advantage PERIOD. Numbers are important and the ability to recruit (for academic purposes only) and offer financial help to those interested (for academic purposes only).

St.X may not have as many football state championships, but check the other sports. If I am not mistaken, St.X basically wins the overall state championship of all sports every year. If my memory serves me correct, ST.X won the Tennis, Golf, Soccer, Track and Field, Cross Country, Swimming, and maybe wrestling last year. This is not uncommon for St.X. Now is this because they have the best athletes, coaches or is it numbers and recruiting? I know what I think.

Not to take away anything from their coaches, but they would not be as successfull if they were in a normal situation. Beatty at Shawnee, Bullitt Central, or Atherton? Would you here all that about him? He has my respect because I have seen up close how his team execute, but I am very understanding of the situation he is in.

You are a coach at a public school correct? How much do the members of your football team pay in tuition to go to your school? How much do they pay for their text books? How much do they pay for transportation to and from school? Is it not true that every student at the school you coach at is on a full tuition scholarship subsidised by tax payer dollars? Does not that same tax money pay the salaries of your teachers and coaches?

The familys of students at Trinity and all other private (not just catholic) schools make sacrafices because they feel that their childrens educational needs will be better served in that environment. If the recruiting and finincial aid (your words not mine) make so much of a difference then why don't Holy Cross or DeSales regularly challange for championships in their respective classes?

I'm sorry but your whole post sounded to me like one big excuse for why your team can't compete with the big guns. While we're on that subject explain how a public school like Male has been able to be as successful as they have with a much smaller male enrollment then either Trinity or X. Could coaching and tradition be a factor for them but not for the private schools?

I'm going to try to throw some water on this with two examples. Highlands and Boyle County. Highlands is one of the smaller schools in 3A and I'll bet if I said something like they weren't one of the premier programs in 3A I would have Bluebird feathers thrown from all over the place. Boyle County is now one of the smallest 3A schools having just recently moved up from 2A yet they have won both 3A championships since moving up to that level.

IMHO this whole numbers thing is just an attempt by some to rationalize why public school programs have not done better.

Guru I ask this on the forum because others may be interested. Can we refer to rumors heard on other boards without linking to or mentioning those boards by name? I just did this recently and if it is a violation I appologize.