"Us Versus Them."

[Ram]

Background information:

To me, is seem as if recruiting is more ramped in football than any other sport. I do see how basketball could be close, and maybe it happens more in basketball, but from what I see and hear, it seems to happen more in football than any other sport. That is why I am placing this in the "Football Forum".

 

I know that there has been a new allegation of a school being guilty of recruiting. And that other schools have been accused and punished for recruiting, but I would appreciate it if we did not use this thread as a place to discuss those particular situations. I know that it may be pertinent to use those previous situations as a reference to illustrate a point or to give credit to a particular argument, but please don't use this thread as a place to bash previously guilty schools.

 

My point:

When a discussion is started about recruiting, it always end up being a "Public versus Private" debate - "Us versus them". But, I don't see it as a public/private issue, I see it as a "Right versus Wrong" issue. I think that if a school is guilty of recruiting impropriety they should be punished severely, no matter if they are public or private.

 

I don't care about a split in playoffs or a multiplier for the private schools. I don't care if a private school is in my teams district, region, or class. I just want the rules to be enforced.

 

So, I don't think it should be "Us versus Them" (Public versus Private). I think it should be "Us versus the KHSAA". We should not be as mad at a particular school or a particular kind of school, we should be mad at the KHSAA for not severally punishing schools that are found to be guilty of recruiting and setting a president to discourage other schools from even thinking of recruiting. Our anger should be toward the KHSAA for allowing this to go on, and on, and on. Without putting a stop to it.

 

I, personally, think that a player who excepts gifts or monetary gain (not tuition, but pocket money) to attend a certain school, should lose their eligibility for life. This would be a great discourager to players who are approached by a school to transfer. And any school who is found guilty of recruiting should be fined heavily, around $50K or $100K, and banned from post season play for five years. A severe and set punishment that all schools would be aware of, and know ahead of time if they are caught recruiting, that this is the punishment that they will receive.

 

This may not stop all recruiting, but I think if the KHSAA took a big stand against recruiting that most people would refrain from any kind of recruiting. And the rest of us would feel that everything that could be done was being done.

[Watusi]

You make a good argument for more severe punishments. I would add that the coaches should be severely punished also when found guilty of recruiting.

 

However, it seems to me that pure recruiting is very hard to prove and would be largely based on circumstantial evidence. The KHSAA would have to beef up its legal budget if it moved in this direction.

[Covercorner]

I so agree that it should not be an "Us vs. Them" argument. KHSAA rules and punishments apply to all schools. Some people will always feel that one group or another will not get a fair shake, and that applies to football, taxes, college admissions, ect.

[Eaglenation]

Outstanding posts...............:ylsuper:

[PepRock01]

I agree with what you have said good sir.

[Ram]

I agree with what you have said good sir.

Outstanding posts...............:ylsuper:

Thank you, I am just a little upset with the inconsistencies. In raising children, I have learned that if you let them get away with something at a young age, they will continue to try to get away with those things and even try to get away with bigger stuff. But, if they learn that they will get a punishment that is unpleasant, from the beginning, they are less likely to try to get away with those things again.

 

The inconsistencies bread continuation of impropriaties. If one school is fined $31K for recruiting three players and another school is fined $13K for recruiting 15 players, this gives law breakers a hope of not getting punished severely, if caught. Some people will say, let take a chance, we might just get a little fine. But, if the punishment is swift, severe, and well known then most people would not take the chance of receiving it.

 

I don't think that we need new bylaws or rules to stop recruiting, the KHSAA just need to enforce what rules are already in place, and enforce them with a strong hand.

[Eaglenation]

What they need is a seperate entity that operates outside the KHSAA to monitar and investigate issues that come up. Kindly like the FBI does for the US government. That is a harsh comparison, but you know what I mean. A group that has NO invested intrest in individual schools and weither they make money for the KHSAA. They could report to the KHSAA but their findings would be final. Develop some penilties for rule breakers and go to work.

[Ram]

You make a good argument for more severe punishments. I would add that the coaches should be severely punished also when found guilty of recruiting.

You make a good point, coaches, if caught, should be punished as well. But, I think that most coaches are smart enough to stay away from recruiting situations. If a coach is recruiting minded, I think most are smart enough to have someone do the contacting of players for them. But, I would not be opposed to a punishment set for coaches who are actively involved in recruiting.

However, it seems to me that pure recruiting is very hard to prove and would be largely based on circumstantial evidence. The KHSAA would have to beef up its legal budget if it moved in this direction.

I agree, recruiting is generally difficult to prove, that is why, when found to be guilty of recruiting the penalty should be huge, so no one else would take a chance of getting caught doing it.

 

Carpe Deum. When the KHSAA finds a school guilty of violation of Bylaw 10, they should "seize the day", and make an example of the offending school. These last several violations that the KHSAA has found to be legitimate was there opportunity to say, "We are not going to allow a school to recruit players and go unpunished".

 

The KHSAA could put the "separate playoffs", and "Multipliers" to bed, if they would just give severe punishment to the schools found to be guilty of recruiting. Another missed opportunity for the KHSAA.

[Coach Hard]

I feel like the hardest blowback from the recruiting scandals are felt at the lower levels. Granted, 6A is dominated by Trinity and St.X, but when you look at the 1A and 2A levels, snagging just a couple of good kids can change the results of an entire season. At the lower levels, a few athletes make a much bigger impact!

 

I feel bad for teams like Hazard, that played their guts out against LCA. Being 1A Hazard has a small, unselective population. When they have to go against the best from Lexington, that just doesn't give a level playing field.

[Eaglenation]

I feel like the hardest blowback from the recruiting scandals are felt at the lower levels. Granted, 6A is dominated by Trinity and St.X, but when you look at the 1A and 2A levels, snagging just a couple of good kids can change the results of an entire season. At the lower levels, a few athletes make a much bigger impact!

 

I feel bad for teams like Hazard, that played their guts out against LCA. Being 1A Hazard has a small, unselective population. When they have to go against the best from Lexington, that just doesn't give a level playing field.

 

Well said my friend.... Very good observation.

[Coach Hard]

Anyone else checked the Lexington Herald online section about high school sports???

 

http://www.kentucky.com/high_school/

 

Something is missing???? Hmmm...not a single entry about the recent violation....yet, they still have a photo of LCA at the state championship....interesting, huh...

[AnswertheBell]

Seperation is the ONLY answer. Discussion should read, "Us and Them." I have said it before, it will happen. There is no stopping it and cases like LCA only speed up the process. This is why we have 6 classes now. Preparing us for 4 public and 2 private down the road.

 

Two different institutions and the private school process creates and unfair advantage within itself.

[Covercorner]

 

1. The inconsistencies bread continuation of impropriaties. If one school is fined $31K for recruiting three players and another school is fined $13K for recruiting 15 players, this gives law breakers a hope of not getting punished severely, if caught. Some people will say, let take a chance, we might just get a little fine. But, if the punishment is swift, severe, and well known then most people would not take the chance of receiving it.

 

2. I don't think that we need new bylaws or rules to stop recruiting, the KHSAA just need to enforce what rules are already in place, and enforce them with a strong hand.

 

1. From what I understand, the fine for the violations for the two schools you mention are the same, but the extra costs that the schools have to pay is tied to the cost of the investigatioin. One of those schools investigation obviously didn't cost as much.

 

2. The proposal to increase investigative and enforcement powers, as we know did not pass at the last delegate assembly. Did it deserve to be passed, based on cost analysis...I don't know.

[divadawg]

Thank you so much for your comment Coach Hard. It certainly is difficult when you are a 1A school playing with students from within your boundaries and facing a team for a large city that can draw enrollment from a larger area with no limitations other than whatever enrollment numbers your administration chooses to enforce. We have fought this for many years and it is never easy. Hazard always remains competative in the sports in which they participate which I feel is a testament to our administration for hiring qualified coaches who are able to motivate young people and help them achieve the most of their talent. Nevertheless, I feel if the playing fields were more level, we along with sevel other 1A schools, would be better able to match up with the competition.

 

What is the solution? I don't know, but it appears to me this is only leading to the KHSAA finally realizing there must be separation of the public and private school when it comes to tournaments or playoffs. I would hate for it to come to that, but in order to work toward equality, maybe that would be the easiest solution to the problem.

[rockmom]

Ram, I agree with you. And for years, that's what I've said about the whole issue. That's why the private schools are upset whenever a proposal to split is brought up. The issue is, though, bigger than stiffer fines and rigid enforcement. That's why during the whole process of the last proposal to split, that the private schools proposed a larger investigative force. I have no idea how many violations that the KHSAA gets in a year, or how many of them are allegations of recruiting. But, I feel that the KHSAA is a very small body compared to the number of schools it's asked to oversee. We, as member schools, have a duty to support them in two ways: Allow them to have the staff they need to conduct their job to our satisfaction, and to follow the rules consistently and with integrity, and not try to get away with something until we're caught (that goes for publics and privates alike). We're quick to put ALL the blame on the KHSAA. But we've done nothing to ensure their success if we don't investigate ways to make sure they are able to be successful.

 

And to this:

 

Two different institutions and the private school process creates and unfair advantage within itself.

 

Please explain in further detail.