Coaches are upset about Covid forfeit rule

[bugatti]

11 hours ago, wrn1979 said:

I'm slow  to respond to all of this, because despite the fact that I've been working elbows-deep on the front lines of the covid pandemic, most Kentuckians don't care about the truth.

It is the unvaccinated that are filling up hospitals right now. There's no way around that argument. I work in a large hospital system with 2 major medical centers, a 3rd community hospital, a 4th still-smaller hospital, and closing in on 5 critical access satellite hospitals. Granted, we exist primarily in Indiana and Illinois, but two of our hospitals are in Kentucky, and they ALL funnel critical care admissions into our 2 major medical centers. 95+% of our covid related deaths since April have been in the unvaccinated, 90+% of our covid related ICU admissions since April have been in the unvaccinated, and 85+% of our total overall hospitalizations have been in the unvaccinated. Elderly, medically complex vaccinated people are getting discharged from the ER without having to be admitted, while "otherwise healthy" middle-aged unvaccinated people are going to critical care/dying. You simply cannot debate the efficacy of the vaccine in terms of reducing the effects of infection. These statistics have been published and reproduced across any number of healthcare organizations in multiple states "masked" and "unmasked."

That said, I have some anecdotal evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, as I am coaching in one of the highest risk activities. Two of my VACCINATED athletes have tested positive recently, both with minimal symptoms. We identified 6 athletes who met the definition of "primary contact," and all of which were UNVACCINATED. Not one of them has developed nary a sniffle. They've all tested negative and return(ed) to play with the last ones coming back tomorrow. They were exposed to each other while unmasked.

As @theguru stated: Covid is not going anywhere. It is with us "4life." Coronaviruses have been in existence years, and we have been trying to find the perfect vaccine/cure for "the common cold," for many years. That is one of the factors that allowed the vaccine to be created with such speed. There were 60-years of research into this, combined with the efforts of the best immunology experts from throughout the world working towards one common goal. 

At this point, teams who go under team-quarantine have no excuse. The answer to avoiding being quarantined is right under everyone's noses. I believe firmly in freedom of choice, especially when it comes to medical decision making, but I also believe there are consequences for every decision we make in life. Choosing not to be vaccinated means you might end up quarantined and not being able to play. 

This post probably brings it all together better than anything I've seen.

[bugatti]

I get it. This stinks on so many levels.

I cannot offer a better solution because I'm not sure one exists. It is all just unfortunate. Not getting into the middle of "this was/wasn't preventable" debate... we can do that in another thread. Regardless of the circumstances, I continue to cross my fingers life can return to normal as soon as possible.

[mcpapa]

We all knew this would devolve somewhat after the initial “people don’t like the forfeit rule” topic.

That being said, I’ll echo bugatti’s sentiments. 

[Unrivaled97]

18 hours ago, Unrivaled97 said:

I do appreciate how the flu has suddenly disappeared from the face of the Earth. 🙂  

 

18 hours ago, TheDeuce said:

No it hasn't. 

[TheDeuce]

3 minutes ago, Unrivaled97 said:

 

Well first of all, it's not flu season, and hasn't been for almost three months. Ask any medical professional if the flu "disappeared from the face of the earth" last season. 

[TheDeuce]

7 minutes ago, Unrivaled97 said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

Well first of all, it's not flu season, and hasn't been for almost three months. Ask any medical professional if the flu "disappeared from the face of the earth" last season. 

Not to mention, we all spent less time around each other than ever before during last flu season, so one would think it's an easy assumption to make that that's why flu numbers weren't what they normally are. 

It's almost like, wearing masks and staying away from each other helps prevent the spread of illnesses...

[WestKYHoops4]

Forgive all student loan debt, watch the vax rate go through the roof. 

[Unrivaled97]

1 minute ago, TheDeuce said:

Well first of all, it's not flu season, and hasn't been for almost six months. Ask any medical professional if the flu "disappeared from the face of the earth" last season. 

Yep, because you can't get the flu any time of the year.  The flu peaks during the fall and winter, but you can get it at any time.  Ask any medical professional.  It is amazing how you don't hear about it much anymore with Covid now.    Last year, it was estimated that there were 700 deaths due to the flu.  The year before 22,000 and the year before that, 34,000.  That's per the CDC.  But back to the topic at hand of coaches being upset about the Covid forfeit rule.......

[bluecolonels95]

14 hours ago, wrn1979 said:

I'm slow  to respond to all of this, because despite the fact that I've been working elbows-deep on the front lines of the covid pandemic, most Kentuckians don't care about the truth.

It is the unvaccinated that are filling up hospitals right now. There's no way around that argument. I work in a large hospital system with 2 major medical centers, a 3rd community hospital, a 4th still-smaller hospital, and closing in on 5 critical access satellite hospitals. Granted, we exist primarily in Indiana and Illinois, but two of our hospitals are in Kentucky, and they ALL funnel critical care admissions into our 2 major medical centers. 95+% of our covid related deaths since April have been in the unvaccinated, 90+% of our covid related ICU admissions since April have been in the unvaccinated, and 85+% of our total overall hospitalizations have been in the unvaccinated. Elderly, medically complex vaccinated people are getting discharged from the ER without having to be admitted, while "otherwise healthy" middle-aged unvaccinated people are going to critical care/dying. You simply cannot debate the efficacy of the vaccine in terms of reducing the effects of infection. These statistics have been published and reproduced across any number of healthcare organizations in multiple states "masked" and "unmasked."

That said, I have some anecdotal evidence that the vaccine reduces transmission, as I am coaching in one of the highest risk activities. Two of my VACCINATED athletes have tested positive recently, both with minimal symptoms. We identified 6 athletes who met the definition of "primary contact," and all of which were UNVACCINATED. Not one of them has developed nary a sniffle. They've all tested negative and return(ed) to play with the last ones coming back tomorrow. They were exposed to each other while unmasked.

As @theguru stated: Covid is not going anywhere. It is with us "4life." Coronaviruses have been in existence years, and we have been trying to find the perfect vaccine/cure for "the common cold," for many years. That is one of the factors that allowed the vaccine to be created with such speed. There were 60-years of research into this, combined with the efforts of the best immunology experts from throughout the world working towards one common goal. 

At this point, teams who go under team-quarantine have no excuse. The answer to avoiding being quarantined is right under everyone's noses. I believe firmly in freedom of choice, especially when it comes to medical decision making, but I also believe there are consequences for every decision we make in life. Choosing not to be vaccinated means you might end up quarantined and not being able to play. 

Finally. Someone that actually knows what their talking about on this subject matter. I applaud you. 

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

3 hours ago, Unrivaled97 said:

Yep, because you can't get the flu any time of the year. The flu peaks during the fall and winter, but you can get it at any time. Ask any medical professional. It is amazing how you don't hear about it much anymore with Covid now. Last year, it was estimated that there were 700 deaths due to the flu.  The year before 22,000 and the year before that, 34,000. That's per the CDC. But back to the topic at hand of coaches being upset about the Covid forfeit rule.......

You can contract the flu any time of year, yes, but it is far more communicable in the fall/winter because the flu viruses have a significantly shorter lifespan out in the air and on surfaces when the weather is warmer. There is also an abundance of evidence that not only does COVID-19 have a longer lifespan in the open than influenza viruses due, but COVID-19 also lingers in the air, specifically up in the air, for a significantly longer period of time than the flu viruses do.

If you add to that the fact that people were mandated to wear masks out in the public last year during the fall/winter months, well, as much as everyone was whining and moaning about it, they effectively helped wipe out the 2020 flu season.

Try insinuating to any doctor that the very notable "lack of the flu" last year wasn't a completely logical and direct result of the extremely diminished amount of in-person contact with others combined with the mask wearing, and see if they don't eye-roll you right out the door.

And for what it's worth, an awwwwwwful lot of the "grumble-grumble...COVID didn't kill them...grumble-grumble...they died because they had complicating factors" talk we heard coming from all over the place in 2020, well, guess what one of the more common complicating factors is in people who die of COVID-19? You guessed it...influenza. Why? Because they influenza and COVID-19 essentially spread the exact same way in the exact same environments and effect the exact same parts of people's bodies. So what was the primary cause of death in those people? COVID-19 (remember...because everyone kept griping about how too many death certificates attributed death to COVID-19). What was the secondary or tertiary cause? Influenza. Would they have died of the flu instead of COVID-19? Tough to say they would have. Tough to say they wouldn't have.

My brother is the senior-most respiratory therapist at Good Samaritan hospital in Cincinnati, and he's also the head RT on their pandemic team (Good Sam is the official pandemic medical center for southwest Ohio) in addition to being in charge of all therapeutic respiratory care in the COVID and cardiac ICUs. Once patients get to the point where they are put on a respirator at Good Sam, they receive a full blood panel so doctors have as complete as possible an idea of what they are fighting and  what they need to treat. This is information directly from my brother and not from an official study...but as the individual overseeing all intubation and respirator monitoring for COVID patients at the southwest Ohio pandemic center, I take him for his word on this. And he has said a handful of times that blood panels at Good Sam found that during the 2020 fall/winter flu season, about 4 out of 5 - that's 80% - of their intubated COVID patients also had the flu. And that percentage is no secret among doctors in hospital ICUs and hospital clinics.

Now, if you listen to certain news reporting, or if you're the type who gets on YouTube and buys into the outpatient PCPs, the ophthalmologists, and dermatologists who try to get themselves booked on Sally Jessy with their hot take on "the truth about COVID" when they film a video on their iPhone to explain all the "real" details that theyyyyyy have about COVID after attesting multiple times that "I am a licensed physician, so I'm not oblivious to what goes on in these hospitals"...then I'm sure you can find yourself some medical professionals who wouldn't know how many flu cases there have been that were NOT listed as cause of death because they were not the primary cause of death, and were only playing second or third fiddle to COVID-19 when the decedent finally expired.

[Unrivaled97]

1 hour ago, Colonels_Wear_Blue said:

You can contract the flu any time of year, yes, but it is far more communicable in the fall/winter because the flu viruses have a significantly shorter lifespan out in the air and on surfaces when the weather is warmer. There is also an abundance of evidence that not only does COVID-19 have a longer lifespan in the open than influenza viruses due, but COVID-19 also lingers in the air, specifically up in the air, for a significantly longer period of time than the flu viruses do.

If you add to that the fact that people were mandated to wear masks out in the public last year during the fall/winter months, well, as much as everyone was whining and moaning about it, they effectively helped wipe out the 2020 flu season.

Try insinuating to any doctor that the very notable "lack of the flu" last year wasn't a completely logical and direct result of the extremely diminished amount of in-person contact with others combined with the mask wearing, and see if they don't eye-roll you right out the door.

And for what it's worth, an awwwwwwful lot of the "grumble-grumble...COVID didn't kill them...grumble-grumble...they died because they had complicating factors" talk we heard coming from all over the place in 2020, well, guess what one of the more common complicating factors is in people who die of COVID-19? You guessed it...influenza. Why? Because they influenza and COVID-19 essentially spread the exact same way in the exact same environments and effect the exact same parts of people's bodies. So what was the primary cause of death in those people? COVID-19 (remember...because everyone kept griping about how too many death certificates attributed death to COVID-19). What was the secondary or tertiary cause? Influenza. Would they have died of the flu instead of COVID-19? Tough to say they would have. Tough to say they wouldn't have.

My brother is the senior-most respiratory therapist at Good Samaritan hospital in Cincinnati, and he's also the head RT on their pandemic team (Good Sam is the official pandemic medical center for southwest Ohio) in addition to being in charge of all therapeutic respiratory care in the COVID and cardiac ICUs. Once patients get to the point where they are put on a respirator at Good Sam, they receive a full blood panel so doctors have as complete as possible an idea of what they are fighting and  what they need to treat. This is information directly from my brother and not from an official study...but as the individual overseeing all intubation and respirator monitoring for COVID patients at the southwest Ohio pandemic center, I take him for his word on this. And he has said a handful of times that blood panels at Good Sam found that during the 2020 fall/winter flu season, about 4 out of 5 - that's 80% - of their intubated COVID patients also had the flu. And that percentage is no secret among doctors in hospital ICUs and hospital clinics.

Now, if you listen to certain news reporting, or if you're the type who gets on YouTube and buys into the outpatient PCPs, the ophthalmologists, and dermatologists who try to get themselves booked on Sally Jessy with their hot take on "the truth about COVID" when they film a video on their iPhone to explain all the "real" details that theyyyyyy have about COVID after attesting multiple times that "I am a licensed physician, so I'm not oblivious to what goes on in these hospitals"...then I'm sure you can find yourself some medical professionals who wouldn't know how many flu cases there have been that were NOT listed as cause of death because they were not the primary cause of death, and were only playing second or third fiddle to COVID-19 when the decedent finally expired.

I appreciate the response and thought that went into it.  What started out as me trying to shed a little light humor about the flu disappearing because of the "new kid on the block" COVID in a sarcastic manner, was obviously taken a bit far by some.....and sadly the comment was taken at face value.  Not necessarily you, but definitely some.  I know the flu hasn't disappeared off the face of the Earth.  I'm not an idiot, but why is it that flu is reported way less than COVID then?  Anyway, I have my own thoughts on why COVID numbers are way up and flu cases are way down in conjunction with each other and why it may be more beneficial to report things as COVID vs. the flu, but that would really get us off track and probably get me into trouble.  Now, back to the true topic of this thread........ 

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

1 hour ago, Unrivaled97 said:

I appreciate the response and thought that went into it.  What started out as me trying to shed a little light humor about the flu disappearing because of the "new kid on the block" COVID in a sarcastic manner, was obviously taken a bit far by some.....and sadly the comment was taken at face value.  Not necessarily you, but definitely some.  I know the flu hasn't disappeared off the face of the Earth.  I'm not an idiot, but why is it that flu is reported way less than COVID then?  Anyway, I have my own thoughts on why COVID numbers are way up and flu cases are way down in conjunction with each other and why it may be more beneficial to report things as COVID vs. the flu, but that would really get us off track and probably get me into trouble.  Now, back to the true topic of this thread........ 

I can appreciate that. And I didn't mean to imply that you personally were an idiot. I apologize if I came off that way...really.

It has just been an incredibly frustrating process having a wife who's a doctor working at UofL Hospital and Norton Children's Hospital and who's been on the frontline dealing with COVID every day for a year and a half, and a brother who's one of the people in charge of the COVID unit at Good Samaritan Hospital in Cincinnati and has been working fulltime dealing with literally nothing but COVID patients for a year and a half....and hearing how they come home and say, "Look, this is bad, this is really really bad. Right here in Kentucky, and right here in Cincinnati, this is really REALLY bad. People need to do what they're being asked, and they need to get vaccinated because it's the people who aren't doing that that are dying."

....and then I hop onto Facebook or Twitter and to see a bunch of granola moms and folks who get their news from YouTube quacks with a bachelors degree in communications and a minor in biology acting like they know the real truth of what's going on here and telling folks to take off their masks, and refuse to get vaccinated because Bill Gates spouted off some crap about microchips.

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

So I was curious how Martin County could add in a game against George Rogers Clark after having a forfeit loss against them, and I ended up learning a new tidbit about the KHSAA's COVID forfeit rule:

COVID forfeits do not count against the 10 total games allowed to be played. Even if a team takes a forfeit loss due to COVID, they still are allowed to play 10 "on field" games if they can make it happen. In other words, we may see teams with 11-game regular season records for 2021.

That's a heck of a wrinkle to allow a team to attempt try to mend their RPI after it gets wonked by a COVID forfeit loss.

[theguru]

39 minutes ago, Colonels_Wear_Blue said:

So I was curious how Martin County could add in a game against George Rogers Clark after having a forfeit loss against them, and I ended up learning a new tidbit about the KHSAA's COVID forfeit rule:

COVID forfeits do not count against the 10 total games allowed to be played. Even if a team takes a forfeit loss due to COVID, they still are allowed to play 10 "on field" games if they can make it happen. In other words, we may see teams with 11-game regular season records for 2021.

That's a heck of a wrinkle to allow a team to attempt try to mend their RPI after it gets wonked by a COVID forfeit loss.

I assume that means the forfeit "still counts as a forfeit" and the new game counts like any other game? 

[Colonels_Wear_Blue]

1 hour ago, theguru said:

I assume that means the forfeit "still counts as a forfeit" and the new game counts like any other game? 

The forfeit counts as a 1-0 loss against the forfeiting team. The new game would count like any other game, yes.