KHSAA football tie-breaker three or more teams

[thsrocks]

From the KHSAA handbook on their website: football competition rules

 

TIE-BREAKER (more than two teams). Should three or more

teams tie for the a district position based upon the win-loss record, the position shall be determined by the following:

i) If one of the teams has defeated each of the other teams

tied in games contested between them, that team shall be declared to hold the highest position, and the winner of the game between the remaining teams (if less than four) shall be declared the second highest position. In the event of more than three teams being tied, where one has defeated each of the tied teams, that team shall be declared the highest position, and the tie-breaking procedure shall be re-applied for the remaining tied teams.

ii) If the tie remains, each team tied for the position shall receive one point for each game won by any four of their defeated opponents in all games, except for the games played between any two of the tied teams. All games played shall be counted in applying the tie-breaking procedure, including out of state games, with the exception that a defeated school may be counted only once in the procedure regardless of the number of games played against that particular school. Teams awarded forfeit victories (whether or not a forfeit fee is paid) may count the defeated opponents of the forfeiting team, provided the game was not replaced on the schedule.

iii) If the tie remains after application of provision (ii), an additional defeated opponent’s wins will be added to the point total for each team until the tie is broken and the winner of the tied position declared, or until all games are exhausted.

iv) If the tie for the position involves only three teams, and the application of (ii) and (iii) results in one team being declared the winner of the tied position based on point totals, the highest point total from the application of (ii) and (iii) between the two remaining tied teams shall be declared to hold the next position.

[Hellbird]

Always hated how KHSAA did tie breakers for 3 teams.

 

Never made much sense as was the case in 2012 when Cooper who had the best record in their district with a 9-1 record and ended up being the 3 seed behind 2 teams with 8-2 records.

 

Just stupid tie breaking rules if you ask me.

[frankdracman23]

Always hated how KHSAA did tie breakers for 3 teams.

 

Never made much sense as was the case in 2012 when Cooper who had the best record in their district with a 9-1 record and ended up being the 3 seed behind 2 teams with 8-2 records.

 

Just stupid tie breaking rules if you ask me.

 

I'm not saying that it is a good system but to complain about it.......you need to offer a better system.

[NEERFAN]

If Campbell knocks off Dixie and the Colonels knock of the Neers we'll likely need a TB.

[Hellbird]

I'm not saying that it is a good system but to complain about it.......you need to offer a better system.

Sure, piece of cake. You use Points for against all district teams. That way you have common opponents and if there is still a tie then tie breaker is points against.

 

Simple and fair.

[frankdracman23]

Sure, piece of cake. You use Points for against all district teams. That way you have common opponents and if there is still a tie then tie breaker is points against.

 

Simple and fair.

 

 

So you would encourage teams to run up the score if at all possible in District games? Including throwing the ball in the endzone 3 times when up 28-7 with 20 seconds and three timeouts left? And I don't even want to think about the last district game where Team A needs to beat Team B by 21 or more for a seed and Team B is down 20 and is taking delay of game penalties and a knee in order to run out the clock and only lose by 20.

[thsrocks]

I have one possible, however unlikely scenario.....Male beats St. X, Trinity beats Male and all three beat Manual. Those wins versus out of state teams would do Trinity some additional good. I recall a time when games versus out of state teams would not factor in tie-breaker system. Does anyone else remember this or am I mistaken? I was happy to read those do count and with Carmel, Imhotep, Cocoa, and Cathedral picking up victories, this schedule could save Trinity a three hour tour of western Kentucky in the first week of November! It's a long road to Halloween. Enjoy the ride.

[Hellbird]

So you would encourage teams to run up the score if at all possible in District games? Including throwing the ball in the endzone 3 times when up 28-7 with 20 seconds and three timeouts left? And I don't even want to think about the last district game where Team A needs to beat Team B by 21 or more for a seed and Team B is down 20 and is taking delay of game penalties and a knee in order to run out the clock and only lose by 20.

That is an easy fix then. Use Points Against first as the tie breaker for all district games and the next tie breaker would be points for.

 

It's the fairest way. Everyone knows the best way to judge who is better besides head to head is common opponents.

 

Not using common opponents then punishes the teams with a tougher out of district schedule.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Hellbird

[Tommy2tone]

The Dickerson has been around for 30 years, they will never change it.

[Watusi]

Everyone knows the best way to judge who is better besides head to head is common opponents.

Not everyone.

 

Wins and losses against common opponents, maybe. When you get into point spreads vs common opponents, no way.

 

Assume a district with 4 teams, and in this 3 way tie between Teams A, B and C consider the following...

 

The three teams have only one common opponent, Team D

 

A builds a 35-0 lead over D and pulls their starters early in cruising to a 35-21 victory.

B comes from behind to send the game into overtime and then beat D 14-7 in OT

C and D get into a shootout and C wins 48-42

 

Who should win that tie-breaker?

[Hellbird]

Not everyone.

 

Wins and losses against common opponents, maybe. When you get into point spreads vs common opponents, no way.

 

Assume a district with 4 teams, and in this 3 way tie between Teams A, B and C consider the following...

 

The three teams have only one common opponent, Team D

 

A builds a 35-0 lead over D and pulls their starters early in cruising to a 35-21 victory.

B comes from behind to send the game into overtime and then beat D 14-7 in OT

C and D get into a shootout and C wins 48-42

 

Who should win that tie-breaker?

The three have 3 common opponents with all teams in the district. Basically you take the district games...you include when they play eachother also.

 

So it isn't 1 common opponent in a 4 district league, it's 3 common opponents.

 

You have team:

A,B,C,D

 

A beats B, B beats C and C beats A and all 3 beat D

3 way tie.

Go to points against in all district games

A allowed 7 pts against B

A allowed 0 pts against D

A allowed 21 pts against C

 

B allowed 14 pts against A

B allowed 3 pts against C

B allowed 3 pts against D

 

C allowed 10 pts against A

C allowed 21 pts against B

C allowed 0 pts against D

 

B allowed fewest points so B gets 1 seed

A allowed 2nd fewest pts and is seed 2

C allowed most pts and gets seed 3

[Watusi]

Why put the premium only on defense? What you would do in that system is encourage every team to play their starters the whole game in order to beat the system.

 

Just in the example I gave, B won 14-7 in OT and they would get the nod ahead of A who could have won 50-0 but pulled their starters and the JV gave up 21 points.

 

That would be a terrible system, IMO.

[Hellbird]

Why put the premium only on defense? What you would do in that system is encourage every team to play their starters the whole game in order to beat the system.

 

Just in the example I gave, B won 14-7 in OT and they would get the nod ahead of A who could have won 50-0 but pulled their starters and the JV gave up 21 points.

 

That would be a terrible system, IMO.

Because as was pointed out, that will help eliminate trying to purposely run up the score.

 

Either way it's a much MUCH better system than the broken system KHSAA currently uses.

When teams play different teams outside district there is no measuring stick at all. At least this way all the teams are compared against the same teams they played which would do a lot more to determining who the better teams was.

 

There will always be some scenerios that you talked about in every tie breaker. For instance 2012 when Conner got the #2 seed over Cooper they got it because the last game of the season where they were still playing for a high seed and at the time playing for the #1 seed played a team Cov Cath who already had their playoff spot locked in and sat most of their starters. Conner goes on to win against backups and even though Cooper also won the last week and had a better overall record that knocked Cooper down to a #3 seed. and how is that any fairer than the scenario you talked about?

 

When a team has to depend on factors out of it's control such as how many games did a teams opponent win during the season, well that isn't very fair because the team fighting for the top seed has no say in who their opponents play during the season.

[Oldbird]

I haven't done the math, but I would bet you that Hellbird's proposal resulted in Cooper winning the district in 2012.

[Hellbird]

I haven't done the math, but I would bet you that Hellbird's proposal resulted in Cooper winning the district in 2012.

I don't know, didn't even look

 

Seriously, I don't know the PF and PA that year compared to So Oldham and Conner.

 

Just seems like a fair way to do it when you take into account common opponents than use opponents that the other teams didn't even play to decide tie breakers.

 

Here is the problem I have with the tie breaker rules as they stand now.

If you aren't going to use overall record as a tie breaker (which I would be all for) then why do you use the current system?

Here is the reason I say that, it's because people say overall record shouldn't matter because teams can schedule accordingly for out of district games to make sure they have cup cakes to build their record. Well the same thing happens with the current system. So if you aren't going to use overall record (in which Cooper would have had #1 seed in 2012) then don't use the current system which has to do with out of district scheduling also. Abandon them both and use what is the fairest and that would be common opponents in district play.