Fastbreak

If there were a god that was involved in creating the entire universe, why would what Tim Tebow does matter to it. Seems like micro management.

This is a very different concept of God as a detached watch maker who essentially makes the universe, winds it up and sits back to glance at it occasionally.

 

My understanding is that of a caring Father who loves each of us so much that He was willing to send His only begotten Son to become one of us, live a flawless life as we all should live only to be misunderstood, beaten, spit upon, crucified, dead, buried and to rise again from the grave to take on the full burden and pay the penalty for my sins in full... just so I can love Him and bring Him honor and glory forever.

 

I can understand how the first understanding of God would be very unlikely to give a flip about Tim Tebow... but the God I know is so in love with His child Tim, He is interested in what he has for breakfast and how he ties his shoes... not to mention how he conducts himself on a football field. :thumb:

Hard to answer. Those men would have to understand the dynamic of television first. With all due respect one or two of them may want to be reality stars or television could have a negative impact on their faith. Their temptations are different than the ones we face today. Who knows how they would act.

My point is, these guys were so intimately intertwined with God and their faith in Him, that they were open about it with all who would listen.

 

God was real and present and personal to them. He was not some distant, mythical, imagined concept in their minds.

 

Paul was imprisoned, stoned (with rocks thrown at him... come on... don't go there... lol), shipwrecked, beaten and yet he did not stop sharing the Gospel. I will grant you that TT and the Apostle Paul are two very different cats... but the notion of sincerely and genuinely expressing the Good News is a trait we are strongly encouraged (if not directly commanded) to do by Jesus Himself.

"First, Sal, I'd like to thank my Lord Saviour Jesus Christ. We really put together a nice game plan today on where we thought the fish would be. Scouting is key and our scouts are the best in the business. I'd also like to thank my LINE-men. Those lines were key to my success today. And without someone to CATCH the fish as I reel them in I'm nothing. Total team effort today. We know that Lake Solomon is tough and we respect them greatly as our next opponent but as a believer of Jesus Christ we know that those fish swim just like the fish we caught today. We can catch them if we believe in ourselves and our bait and our gear. Only way to win the next battle is to believe. Praise Jesus."

Funny... :thumb:

I am truly curious how some of you would respond to other believers who constantly gave God credit and spoke openly of their faith in public forums.

 

Do any of you honestly believe that if someone stuck a TV camera in the face of King David, Paul of Tarsus, Peter the fisher of men, James, John, Bartholomew, Timothy, John the Baptist or Jesus of Nazareth; there’s not one of them that would praise God and encourage faith in Him?

I thought Ben's perversion with women began while he was in college. I could be wrong but I thought stories surfaced from his college days about him not being so gentlemanly.

I have no knowledge of any of that, and consequently no axe to grind with Big Ben. All I know is there's room at the cross for all who choose to believe and repent. I believe, and find myself repenting daily. While Tebow inspires, guys like Rothlisberger give hope to guys like me.

Good post until you put Roethlisberger and Jesus in the same sentence. Probably not a good model for athletes that are devout Christians.

I believe the point is that at one time, Big Ben was an "on fire" believer too. He experienced success beyond his years (I know of no other QB posting a 15-0 record in their first 15 starts in the NFL) before the pull of the world wooed him away... only to find him returning to his Christian roots in the past couple of years.

 

In Tebow we see a kid raised to be a missionary... an evangelist... a leader of humility and quiet strength. In Rothlisberger, we see a prodigal son come home. Both reflect what it is to be a repentant and forgiven sinner... a Christian. :thumb:

I don't think God cares about football, But He cares about Tim Tebow and God sees Tim's heart and humility toward Him. I also think that God cares and loves all people, so yes, from time to time He raises up people, with a certain demeanor and personality, with certain gifting and platform, for the sake of sharing and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ...the only hope for salvation for all people. What is so amazing to me is how many people have put their thoughts toward God, even if is just to argue, just in a few weeks of Tebow Time. And this morning, I read and article on foxsports.com that had John 3:16 quoted in the article, and I thought wow, how many people are going to read this scripture (Word of God) that would have not read it at all otherwise...just because God allowed Tim to throw for 316 yards. Summary - God cares about people, and He will use anything, football, Tim Tebow, whoever or whatever for His purpose of love and redemption to mankind.

Well said...

At least give credit to the o-line for that!

And if he loses next Sunday, the humble power of faith in God has not changed one iota.

No one... at least not myself, is taking anything away from any of Tebow's teammates. I said as much in my last post. Kyle Orton had the same teammates and was 1-4 as the starting QB this season.

 

I played the game... at least through high school. I know all too well that it takes 11 guys at a time doing their jobs very well to win consistently. I also know that perspective is an interesting thing…

 

Counting his three starts at the end of last season resulting in a 1-2 record, and his current 8-4 record this season, Tim Tebow is 9-6 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB.

 

John Elway was 7-8 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB for the Broncos. In his first post season start, he lost 31-7 to Seattle on 10-15 completions for 123 yards, 0 TDs and 1 Interception. His QB rating that game was 64. In his second playoff appearance he lost 24-17 to Pittsburgh on 19-37 passing for 184 yards, 2 TDs, 2 interceptions, 4 sacks and 37 yards lost. His QB rating was 61.1. He ended up taking the Broncos to 5 Super Bowls and is in the Hall of Fame.

 

By comparison with some current top tier QBs:

 

Peyton Manning was 3-12 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB.

Eli Manning was 7-8 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB.

Drew Brees was 8-7 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB.

Michael Vick was 9-5-1 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB.

 

Ironically, Ben Rothlisberger was 15-0 in his first 15 starts as an NFL QB, and was reprimanded by the league for painting “PFJ” (“Play for Jesus”) on his cleats in his rookie year, and in a pre-Super Bowl interview in 2005 said, “You don’t have to listen to what I have to say, but I will always have the opportunity to glorify God in all that I do.”

 

Tebow is a winner, whether at QB, Fullback, Linebacker... or ministering to orphans in the Phillipines. I love his heart and attitude. :thumb:

This kid took a broken season (1-4) for Denver and went on a 7-1 run of ugly wins as he adjusted to the big time, and put them in the playoff picture for the first time since 2006.

 

In his first true season of meaningful playing time, he took a team of doubters and made them believers. He hasn’t done it with super human strength, but with very obvious human imperfections. He doesn’t suck up the glory for his successes or pass the buck to blame others for his failures. Yes, he had the help of all his teammates, a stubborn defense and a gifted kicker… but so did Kyle Orton. No one can argue that Tebow has been the key factor in Denver’s turn around.

 

Instead of trying to squeeze a big square peg in a smooth round hole, yesterday, for the first time in his 12 games as a starter, his ultra conservative coaching staff opened things up and let him play more of his style of football. The result was two TDs and two field goals in the second quarter alone. One of the best defenses in the NFL gave up more passing yards in that single quarter (185) than they allowed on average in games the entire season (171.9). Not one time did Pittsburgh tackle Tebow for a loss, force him to fumble, or snag a pass for an interception.

 

Of the eight starting QBs in action yesterday, Tebow’s 125.6 passer rating was one of only three in triple digits. The other two were Eli Manning and Drew Brees, both of whom have won Super Bowls already. I recall at least two passes yesterday where Tebow drilled his receivers in the numbers and they muffed the reception.

 

Quite frankly, all the talk of Tebow not being a competent QB is a worn out old record… at least in this game against Pittsburgh. In fact, it was the Steelers banking on Tebow’s weaknesses that was their downfall. If a guy that throws for 316 yards for two TDs, 0 sacks, 0 yards lost, 0 fumbles, 0 interceptions against one of the league’s best defenses is incompetent, then three-quarters of the other QBs in the NFL aren’t competent either.

 

Whether anyone chooses to acknowledge the humble power of faith in God, this kid was a premier NFL QB Sunday against Pittsburgh.

I wonder if Tebow will get to keep his job next season... :lol:

John 1:1-18 are among my favorites in the entire Bible. John leaves absolutely no doubt about who Jesus was/is.

I was a single male with no luggage on a one-way ride. That's always gonna get flagged. The breeches-invasion may just have been a rogue TSA agent. They werew still sortin' a lot of stuff out in '04.

Or perhaps he just liked the cut of your jib??? :lol:

In my part of the state, wood or coal fueled home fireplaces are ubiquitous. I have no doubt that the air quality gains made at the power plant that efficiently burns coal to produce electricity with millions of dollars of filtration systems already in place, will be more than offset by greater home use of unfiltered wood and coal fires for heat throughout our region. It will not be long before the freedom to burn wood or coal at home for heat is regulated and possibly even outlawed. What do you think the whole Carbon Credit scam Al Gore was peddling was all about? Under Gore's masterplan, even a backyard charcoal grill or campfire for s'mores would have been assessed and taxed.

 

Meanwhile, China and India are growing their economies and infrastructure while filling the skies with tons more pollutants and greenhouse gasses than the US will ever produce.

 

Genius in action.

Not in any way?

:lol:

 

Again, I appreciate the humor.

 

I can't speak for Tim, but as for me I can honestly state that my wife is as beautiful to me on the outside as I am sure Giselle is to Tom... and that's just on the outside. I do not know Tom or Giselle personally, but I have a difficult time imagining that Mrs. Tom Brady is anywhere near as beautiful on the inside as my wife is. Again, I do not envy Tom Brady in any way... I cannot imagine Tim Tebow does either. I wish them the greatest joy in their marriage. I have no doubt that Tim has a beautiful "godly" woman in his future. All things in due time. :thumb:

I wonder how mad Tebow is that Brady doesn't have to be a virgin, go on mission trips, or pray every hour to earn God's favor.

I get the intended humor FKYW, but I don't sincerely believe Tebow looks at Brady that way... I know I don't. I do not envy Tom Brady in any way. I admire his skills, he is a tremendous competitor.

And yes, IMO, the Bible is a giant contradiction. Numerous times where something from the OT and NT are complete opposites of one another. That's a contradiction.

Please forgive me Stang. I'll admit that I have yet to read this entire thread from the beginning. I just dipped in and caught your statement above. I will attempt to read the thread as time permits, but I am extremely interested in any concrete examples you might provide that would affirm your contention that the OT and NT are 180 degrees out-of-phase on certain topics.

 

I'm not challenging you or attempting to call you out here, but you seem so convinced, I assume there are several examples that leap to mind for you, and I am interested in reading them.

 

Thanks... :thumb:

I was actually anticipating some response to my last two posts, but in their absence I will conclude for now with the fact that I'm not convinced that God is overly concerned with the outcomes of ball games.

 

I am however, entirely convinced that God has shown and is showing Mr. Tebow His favor. It began twenty-some years ago when his mother chose not to abort him. It continued through his upbringing by clearly devout parents that instilled their faith, and reason for hope and purpose and confidence into their son. It is present today in his confidence to lead his team into the final minutes of every game without quitting, without whining, without being self-absorbed. His confidence is in someone much more mighty than himself. He has every reason to believe that “good things” can and will happen for those who believe. He also has the wisdom to understand that there’s a reason behind temporary losses and setbacks that ultimately make him stronger, better, more focused… leading to even greater success in this life.

 

Where would the excitement of the Rocky movies be if Rocky just came out and dominated every fight? Who would we truly root for if Rocky was technically superior to his every opponent? (Rocky may in fact be the most technically inferior boxer ever to achieve success... even on a fictional basis. He deflects opponent's punches primarily with his face...)

 

Why do you think the Bible is so honest about revealing the flaws and failings of its heroes? Why are we taught that Jesus Himself was tempted by the sins of this world?

 

I sincerely pray for Tim Tebow… that he not lose his ultimate focus and succumb to the allure of worldly wealth, fame and self-gratification. He could yet disappoint or surprise us with some ugly character traits or closet full of skeletons… but, at least for now, he represents in many ways the kind of man I want to be, and I pray that my sons will be.

Words from the Apostle Paul in Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek him.”

 

The Bible is filled with examples of God bestowing His favor upon individuals of His choosing. There are numerous instances of men and women praying for God’s favor, proclaiming God’s favor, being thankful for God’s favor. Both the Old and New Testaments contain numerous instructions for positioning ourselves to receive greater measures of God’s favor.

 

Acts 7:45-46 says that David enjoyed God’s favor.

 

In Luke 4:19 Jesus speaks of the Lord’s favor.

 

In Luke 1:30 the angel tells Mary she has found favor with God.

 

In Luke 1:25 Elizabeth declares that God has shown His favor with her, as she was pregnant with John the Baptist.

 

Daniel 1:9 tells how God caused an official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel.

 

Daniel 9:13 suggests that we might seek God’s favor by turning from our sins and giving attention to His truth.

 

Jeremiah 16:13 suggests that those who serve other gods will not enjoy the favor of God. I think it’s important to point out that “other gods” can mean anything we put in God’s proper place in our lives, drugs, money, power, fame, sex, ourselves, celebrity veneration, food… you name it. We have a knack for making idols of all sorts of things.

 

There are many, many more. I do not find any of this random, unfair or without logic.

This is an interesting thread. I’ve attempted to read and understand each post.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that God does favor us… both collectively and individually.

 

In Matthew 5:45 Jesus tells us, “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” We all have food, shelter, clothing, computers and enough leisure time to invest some on BGP. We are all blessed beyond anything we deserve. We all enjoy God’s favor whether we believe in Him or not… whether we seek Him… whether we attempt to obey Him.

 

Enjoy

 

Beyond this, the Bible sets forth numerous examples and instructions for receiving extra doses of God’s favor. They are all tied in some way with obedience. As any good parent will feed and clothe and care for and discipline all of their children… they also encourage proper behavior with appropriate rewards. As a result, kind, gentle, obedient kids may enjoy more of their parent’s pleasure than stubborn, rebellious kids do.

 

I couldn't have cared less about the NFL for years. I find that the more I learn about Tim Tebow, the more genuine I believe him to be, and the more I like him. He's had an amazing run, but win, lose or draw... he's a winner.

Thank you for expressing so well what my feelings are on this subject.

 

I don't question this guy's right to express himself, I just think this is an inappropriate venue for it.

It was this line that nailed it for you eh Toots?

 

"I wouldn't care if he built a platform upon which he could squat and defecate upon his "masterpiece" as viewers look on in amazement."

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Just kidding Brother... Thanks! Always good to be in agreement with The Sage of the Hills. :thumb:

Ya' know, there used to be a thing known as good taste. Rather than being narrowly subjective, it was nearly an objective standard shared by virtually everyone in the society, because the vast majority of citizens shared the same fundamental standards and expectations. Even those who chose not to live up to them personally understood what was and was not acceptable.

 

Under this shared understanding, it was understood that while any citizen had the "right" to express their freedom of speech through offensive messages, symbols and images, most had the restraint not to do so. Those who did understood and accepted the scorn and rejection they might face… but even then, the vast majority chose appropriate venues for their expressions.

 

I could not care less that this "artist" chose to crucify Santa Claus upon a cross. I wouldn't care if he built a platform upon which he could squat and defecate upon his "masterpiece" as viewers look on in amazement. What I do question is the venue for his "work of art". If there is a museum or gallery willing to display his works to an audience of knowledgeable aficionados, so be it. BUT to put something this visually disturbing upon a public lawn during the celebration of a solely Christian holiday, where two-year-olds and four-year-olds and six-year-olds are going to view this "artist's" twisted vision is entirely inappropriate. It's not a matter of whether he has a "right" to do so, but a matter of "should" he do so.

 

The result, strikes me as either misguided (at best) or entirely self-serving and self-glorifying for the “artist” regardless of who he scars emotionally with his imagery.

This doesn't have to do with religion.

I politely disagree. The primary emblem upon which this "artwork" was constructed was a cross... one of the most powerful religious emblems in the world. The fact that Santa was depicted as being cruficied upon that cross removed any ambiguity about the "artist's" intent. Our version of Santa Claus is derived from the real life St. Nicholas who is a saint in both the Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches. There is only one religion in the world that celebrates Christmas.

 

I am not so dense as to miss the "artist's" intended message... but you cannot escape the fact that if someone had displayed a cross, with a fully fleshed Santa next to it, the ACLU and countless others would have spoken out against it as a religious display.

 

The only reason this display was permitted is because it used Christian symbols in an anti-Christian manner.

 

I'm sure some will disagree, but let this brave "artist" display a large cartoon lampooning Muhammed or burn a Koran during Ramadan and see how "non-religious" this event is.

 

This has to do with the Constitution.

Yes... but freedom of speech with freedom to offend others with that speech is not a guaranteed right on publicly owned property. Even essentially harmless billboards are restricted in certain areas... on both public and private property.

 

As long as we enjoy the freedoms we do, there will be "costs" associated, i.e. the freedom to NOT believe, the freedom to say or express the offensive.

In a day and age when "expressing the offensive" seems to include the Christian message, I would think that your point would be validated by permitting displays of the Ten Commandments or the Beatitudes in public locations. Everyone is free "NOT" to believe the Gospel. :thumb:

What's even more sad is, it's not even surprising.

Not here and now... the futher we drift from God and his Truth, the more ridiculous we become as a society. We are accustomed to bold exhibits and statements of foolishness. I am however, old enough to recall 40 - 50 years ago when such absurdity would have been laughed at or scorned for what it is.

 

We are slowly swirling around the drain as a nation as a result of turning our backs on God and the core values that built this nation. We need to wake up... if it's not already too late.

I wonder if the so called leaders would allow a crucifixon of Jesus to be on the lawn, I say not.

Sadly, I agree...

 

It's interesting this puzzling assembly has defenders as a bold artistic statement, but strip away the skeleton in the Santa suit, and leave only the cross on the courthouse lawn and those same defenders would scream foul.

 

What a goofed up culture we live in...

I agree with FKYW... with the added caveat that the parents need some counseling too...