Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door

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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoot Soup View Post
    Wow. Just wow. That may be the most intolerant and hateful thing I've ever seen written on these boards.
    I'm curious as to why you highlighted this quote as part of your "intolerant and hateful" illustration?:

    "Maybe if most Muslims would stand up and condemn the actions of their idiot Muslims who blow stuff up, then maybe more would be receptive."

    If this is your standard for "intolerance and hate" I guess you'll have to count me in their camp. This seems to be a reasonable question IMO.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastbreak View Post
    I'm curious as to why you highlighted this quote as part of your "intolerant and hateful" illustration?:

    "Maybe if most Muslims would stand up and condemn the actions of their idiot Muslims who blow stuff up, then maybe more would be receptive."

    If this is your standard for "intolerance and hate" I guess you'll have to count me in their camp. This seems to be a reasonable question IMO.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cammando View Post
    So how do you tell the difference between the "good" Muslims and the terrorist Muslims??
    How do you tell the differene between the "good" white people and the MCVay's? How do you tell the difference between the "good" (insert race here) and the ones you have to worry about your safety when you are around them?

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jvdfc View Post
    I'm sure any of us could find numerous Christian leaders and Average Joe Christian adherants that have publicly condemned the evil actions of Timothy McVey, abortion doctor murderers, abortion clinic bombers, the Westboro Baptist Church kooks, Adolph Hitler, Neo-Nazis, etc., etc., etc. These things are clearly out of line with the truth as taught by Jesus Christ. Just because any one of these individuals or groups "claims" to do their evil in the name of God or the Bible, doesn't make it so.

    If I were to go out and claim to murder for Christ, have an adulterous affair for Christ, publish pornography for Christ, preach the love of Satan and sorcery for Christ, get drunk for Christ, etc. it does nothing at all to diminish the truth of Christianity. It would however; certainly say a lot about my lack of understanding of Jesus' teachings.

    The point is, there would be literally millions of Christians worldwide that would denounce my errant actions in the name of the faith they truly understand. They would passionately defend the truth against my deceit and sinful claims. I believe it is very reasonable to ask, "Where is the outcry from learned Muslims with a deep understanding of the Koran as a genuine 'Book of Peace' speaking out against their ignorant brothers misappropriating a peaceful faith for violent purposes?"

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsGuy41017 View Post
    How do you tell the differene between the "good" white people and the MCVay's? How do you tell the difference between the "good" (insert race here) and the ones you have to worry about your safety when you are around them?
    Are you admitting that there are some folks that you need to be cautious of??

  6. #21
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    Here is a very lengthy list of specific Muslim individuals and organizations who have condemned terrorism: Muslims Condemning Attacks.. That was the first hit on google when I searched. The most prominent Muslims from the top of my head - Keith Ellison, Asiv Mandvi, Fareed Zakaria - have certainly condemned terrorism. I'm friends with several Muslims and they are outspoken about the ignorance of the fundamentalists. I constantly hear that Muslims refuse to condemn terrorism, yet I see and hear these condemnations quite frequently. When I hear someone say that Muslims should condemn terrorism so they won't be stereotyped I think it is someone desperately attempting to rationalize their intolerance or, at best, a modern day McCarthy attempting to further their political agenda.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habib View Post
    When I hear someone say that Muslims should condemn terrorism so they won't be stereotyped I think it is someone desperately attempting to rationalize their intolerance or, at best, a modern day McCarthy attempting to further their political agenda.
    …or maybe, just maybe there are some with an in depth understanding of the actual teachings of the prophet that realize it is not the fundamentalists who are being radical with the faith. A strong argument is made by some in the know, that it is the anti-jihadists who are being apostate, liberal, secular… or in Southern Baptist terminology… backsliders.

    This carries far more water than presenting Timothy McVey or abortion clinic bombers as examples of Christian fundamentalism. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the Apostle Paul (the apostle to us gentiles…) that espouse violence, murder, holy war (jihad), or even remotely support the actions of deranged criminals.

    If I am intolerant of anything it is the intentional ignorance perpetrated in the name of political correctness based upon nothing more than “feel good” opinions about how things could or should be, in total disregard of facts to the contrary.

    I would genuinely appreciate someone telling me how “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” really means “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

  8. #23

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    I thought this was a really interesting show after watching it. I don't think either side of the debate shown really tries to understand the other one though. They both want to just blame other people for what is going on and not really try and empathize and help the others understand. Those that filed the lawsuit really don't want to believe that someone can be Muslim and be peaceful and those that were Muslim don't really want to acknowledge the parts of the Koran that do call for killing infidels and mistreating women.

  9. #24

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    The Muslims come in and expect us to change our culture, because if we dont be good neighbors and abide by what they want, then they attack us in the media for hate crimes.

    how would they feel if we went to a muslim country and tried to install all of our culture to them.

    yes I am from the us and i do not have to like other groups to come in and expect anyone to force me to like anything I dont want to.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastbreak View Post
    …or maybe, just maybe there are some with an in depth understanding of the actual teachings of the prophet that realize it is not the fundamentalists who are being radical with the faith. A strong argument is made by some in the know, that it is the anti-jihadists who are being apostate, liberal, secular… or in Southern Baptist terminology… backsliders.

    This carries far more water than presenting Timothy McVey or abortion clinic bombers as examples of Christian fundamentalism. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the Apostle Paul (the apostle to us gentiles…) that espouse violence, murder, holy war (jihad), or even remotely support the actions of deranged criminals.

    If I am intolerant of anything it is the intentional ignorance perpetrated in the name of political correctness based upon nothing more than “feel good” opinions about how things could or should be, in total disregard of facts to the contrary.

    I would genuinely appreciate someone telling me how “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” really means “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
    Your opinion is that only Muslims who engage in and support terrorism are true Muslims while all of the rest are frauds. Why, then, are you calling for Muslims to condemn terrorism if you don’t believe they are actually Muslims by doing so or are otherwise lying? It seems as though you are making a circular argument: a true Muslim would never condemn terrorism, therefore there are no Muslims condemning terrorism.

    I think it is unreasonable to suggest there is only one plausible interpretation of religious texts. Beyond that, I also think it is unreasonable to suggest that a few excerpted quotations are the central and guiding themes of the entire text. Considering that many, if not most, in the Arab world are illiterate, and thus not capable of reading the Quran, one has to wonder why those Muslims in the developed world are not condoning of violence.

    You are also whittling down the Christian religion to only the teachings of Jesus, eliminating the Old Testament from comparison so that its passages about violence, women, and wrath cannot be used. If I’m not mistaken, I believe you have argued before that the Old Testament is inextricable from the Christian faith. However, I bring this up not to say that I believe Christianity is a violent religion due to some violent passages in the Old Testament, but to say that you are doing precisely what you accuse fraudulent Muslims of doing – interpreting or explaining away violent passages.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mountain ref View Post
    The Muslims come in and expect us to change our culture, because if we dont be good neighbors and abide by what they want, then they attack us in the media for hate crimes.
    Come in from? Where? Are they not Americans as well? No one is expecting anyone to change anyones culture! You don't think the stuff the protesters are doing is HATE? Calling Muslims on the phone and threatening them? Burning the construction equiptment? Signs on private property spray painted with "Not Welcome"? People shooting around/above them? Intimidation is okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain ref View Post
    how would they feel if we went to a muslim country and tried to install all of our culture to them.
    We are not talking about another country, FOCUS! We are talking about the USA!

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain ref View Post
    yes I am from the us and i do not have to like other groups to come in and expect anyone to force me to like anything I dont want to.
    There is a name for that! And no one says you are being forced to like anyone! But only to be tolerant!

  12. #27
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    Nothing new.

    "Faced with the election of a Catholic, our culture is at stake."
    -Norman Vincent Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking, on John F. Kennedy's presidential campaign

    The open spaces in this little "insert new thing here" problem always change, but there are always people with fear and hatred in their hearts. Very sad.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastbreak View Post
    …or maybe, just maybe there are some with an in depth understanding of the actual teachings of the prophet that realize it is not the fundamentalists who are being radical with the faith. A strong argument is made by some in the know, that it is the anti-jihadists who are being apostate, liberal, secular… or in Southern Baptist terminology… backsliders.

    This carries far more water than presenting Timothy McVey or abortion clinic bombers as examples of Christian fundamentalism. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus Christ, or the Apostle Paul (the apostle to us gentiles…) that espouse violence, murder, holy war (jihad), or even remotely support the actions of deranged criminals.

    If I am intolerant of anything it is the intentional ignorance perpetrated in the name of political correctness based upon nothing more than “feel good” opinions about how things could or should be, in total disregard of facts to the contrary.

    I would genuinely appreciate someone telling me how “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” really means “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
    I'm sure if I cherry pick from the bible I can find similar passages.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habib View Post
    Your opinion is that only Muslims who engage in and support terrorism are true Muslims while all of the rest are frauds. Why, then, are you calling for Muslims to condemn terrorism if you don’t believe they are actually Muslims by doing so or are otherwise lying? It seems as though you are making a circular argument: a true Muslim would never condemn terrorism, therefore there are no Muslims condemning terrorism.

    I think it is unreasonable to suggest there is only one plausible interpretation of religious texts. Beyond that, I also think it is unreasonable to suggest that a few excerpted quotations are the central and guiding themes of the entire text. Considering that many, if not most, in the Arab world are illiterate, and thus not capable of reading the Quran, one has to wonder why those Muslims in the developed world are not condoning of violence.

    You are also whittling down the Christian religion to only the teachings of Jesus, eliminating the Old Testament from comparison so that its passages about violence, women, and wrath cannot be used. If I’m not mistaken, I believe you have argued before that the Old Testament is inextricable from the Christian faith. However, I bring this up not to say that I believe Christianity is a violent religion due to some violent passages in the Old Testament, but to say that you are doing precisely what you accuse fraudulent Muslims of doing – interpreting or explaining away violent passages.
    You have an absolutely remarkable knack for putting words in my mouth. I said none of the things you assert. I’m sure it would better fit your narrative if I were an intolerant, uninformed, xenophobic yokel, afraid of the unfamiliar.

    For the record, I invested a significant chunk of 1983 reading the Koran in its entirely, from cover to cover… (in an English translation, not in Arabic, so, I realize this discounts my comprehension in the eyes of the truly faithful.) I made notes and studied the most generally accepted biographies of Mohammed. I studied a variety of texts providing insight into the history, context and interpretation of the verses. My desire was to genuinely understand the prophet and the faith he founded. This is something I did not take lightly. It required many visits to bookstores and libraries in the days before most of us had internet access. I still have that English translation of the Koran in my bookcase. I have read passages in it many times since.

    I can state with absolute certainty that the teaching of jihad to millions of illiterate Muslims by mullahs around the world is not derived from some obscure verse or two, but is a legitimate teaching by Muhammad that is repeated multiple times throughout the Koran.

    I never said that Muslims that do not practice jihad are fraudulent, but I do assert that those who do practice jihad are not making up some entirely new doctrine unsupported strong Koranic text and teaching.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by formerkywrestler View Post
    I'm sure if I cherry pick from the bible I can find similar passages.
    If the entire Bible were authored by one person over a dozen years as the Koran was, this would be a fair statement.

    While I do indeed believe the Old Testament is a valid record and foundation for Christian faith. It was, recorded by about 30 predominantly Jewish writers over a millennium for Jews under Jewish law. The last book was written about 400 years before the birth of Jesus Christ.

    As Christians we are taught that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. If I genuinely believed that we are still under the O.T. Law today, I wouldn't eat bacon, sausage, pork chops, catfish, shellfish, lobster, etc.

    In the Book of Matthew, Jesus distilled over 500 laws in the Old Testament including the Ten Commandments into two: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    Muhammad is the prophet and central source of instruction for Islam. Jesus is the central figure and source of teaching for Christianity. It makes sense to me to compare their teachings head-to-head.

    Nowhere in the New Testament are Christians invoked to take up the sword to defend the faith against unbelievers. We are taught to love God, love our neighbor and to even love our enemies.

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