Rob Bell controversy

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  1. #31

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    Randy, I believe we are to judge others but doing it the righteous way. We must warn others if they are doing wrong, but the judging of one's sins we should be careful. In the woman who was gonna be stoned , the people were right it bringing out her sin, but were wrong to stone her. I'll find some verses if I can.
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  2. #32

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    Rob Bell did an interview about his new book.

    Here's an article from the event: http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6223/53/

    Here's an interesting excerpt:

    In an effort to answer the question that everyone was waiting to hear, Miller asked Bell specifically, "Are you a universalist?"

    "No," he said, "if by 'universalist' we mean there's a giant cosmic arm that sweeps everybody in at some point whether you want to be there or not." Bell went on to explain that the love he espouses involves a God who would never violate free will. God, he said, is one of love, and love involves choice and freedom.

    Bell's caveat is that there will be all sorts of different kinds of people in heaven, citing passages where Jesus warned that "all the people who are in might be out and all the people who are out might be in."

    Regarding hell, Bell explained that he believes in hell because he sees it around him every day through the human suffering in the world. He further said that he sees no reason that hell will not be extended into eternity.

  3. #33

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    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...with-rob-bell/

    Bell got really thrown around in this interview, and didn't handle it well.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...with-rob-bell/

    Bell got really thrown around in this interview, and didn't handle it well.
    Did you really think this interviewer knows what he's talking about in this subject field?

    He puts an "either or" to the questions of God's omnipotence. (age old philosophy) It's no different than the questions the Pharisees put to Jesus to attempt to "trap him." Bell simply calls it "paradox." I prefer the word "mystery." Tell me HT, how do you handle the question?

    The interviewer asks Bell if he believes that this life does not matter and post-mortem hope is available. Bell says, "This life matters and post-mortem is conjecture because we don't have enough scripture to define the shape of after life." (Not sure I agree totally but there is very little about after life in scripture in terms of detail)

    The interviewer then says, "I'm asking about this life not after life so can someone be converted post life?" Well if that isn't a contradiction from the interviewer I don't know what it is.

    What kind of interviewer asks: "Critics of your book say the history is inaccurate and your use of scripture is indefensible. That's true isn't it?" Talk about entering an interview with mind made up and in full attack mode. BTW, he does it again right after this.

    Bashir cites the critics of the book (question is have the critics read the book ) and that tells me that Bashir does not even know the subject matter at hand.

    Personally I didn't see much problem at all with the interview (which is all I can base critque on at this point since I have not read the book). Perhaps you can tell me HT, since you started this thread with a veiled attack on Bell, where you see him being "thrown about?"

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatz View Post
    Did you really think this interviewer knows what he's talking about in this subject field?

    He puts an "either or" to the questions of God's omnipotence. (age old philosophy) It's no different than the questions the Pharisees put to Jesus to attempt to "trap him." Bell simply calls it "paradox." I prefer the word "mystery." Tell me HT, how do you handle the question?

    The interviewer asks Bell if he believes that this life does not matter and post-mortem hope is available. Bell says, "This life matters and post-mortem is conjecture because we don't have enough scripture to define the shape of after life." (Not sure I agree totally but there is very little about after life in scripture in terms of detail)

    The interviewer then says, "I'm asking about this life not after life so can someone be converted post life?" Well if that isn't a contradiction from the interviewer I don't know what it is.

    What kind of interviewer asks: "Critics of your book say the history is inaccurate and your use of scripture is indefensible. That's true isn't it?" Talk about entering an interview with mind made up and in full attack mode. BTW, he does it again right after this.

    Bashir cites the critics of the book (question is have the critics read the book ) and that tells me that Bashir does not even know the subject matter at hand.

    Personally I didn't see much problem at all with the interview (which is all I can base critque on at this point since I have not read the book). Perhaps you can tell me HT, since you started this thread with a veiled attack on Bell, where you see him being "thrown about?"
    I think scripture is pretty clear on the after life. Those that knew Christ in this life will be welcomed in to his kingdom, those that don't will be told to depart because I never knew you. I read part of Bell's book last night, rouglhly 20 to 30 pages and so far I haven't seen anything I feel like is scriptural in it. He's spent most of the beggining just posing questions with no real answers to them. Though he seems to be making clear that he believes God wouldn't create people if they were going to go to hell. In the first chapter he goes on about people who haven't heard the name of Jesus, and I admit that's one I struggle with, however, in John it's made clear that no one comes to the Father accept through the son. So without Jesus their is no finding one with God. I haven't seen anything that will refute that.

    I'll try and review the book more as I read more but it may be a few days with family coming in to visit. He's thrown around because he want answer straightforward questions. Part of it may be wanting to leave mystery, this controversy will be wonderful for book sales I'm sure. So the longer he can drag it out with out definitive answers the better for book sales.

    That video was sent to me too by a guy that use to love Rob Bell that is in seminary now. He's to the point where my friend can't defend him anymore. Bell really has left the main stream.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    I think scripture is pretty clear on the after life. Those that knew Christ in this life will be welcomed in to his kingdom, those that don't will be told to depart because I never knew you. I read part of Bell's book last night, rouglhly 20 to 30 pages and so far I haven't seen anything I feel like is scriptural in it. He's spent most of the beggining just posing questions with no real answers to them. Though he seems to be making clear that he believes God wouldn't create people if they were going to go to hell. In the first chapter he goes on about people who haven't heard the name of Jesus, and I admit that's one I struggle with, however, in John it's made clear that no one comes to the Father accept through the son. So without Jesus their is no finding one with God. I haven't seen anything that will refute that.

    I'll try and review the book more as I read more but it may be a few days with family coming in to visit. He's thrown around because he want answer straightforward questions. Part of it may be wanting to leave mystery, this controversy will be wonderful for book sales I'm sure. So the longer he can drag it out with out definitive answers the better for book sales.

    That video was sent to me too by a guy that use to love Rob Bell that is in seminary now. He's to the point where my friend can't defend him anymore. Bell really has left the main stream.
    Do let me know what you see in the book when you get the chance. Don't have a copy yet and don't know when I'll get to purchase one. Would love to hear more from those who've read it.

    As to the questions asked in the interview:

    Which do you say it is? God is all powerful and allows evil & bad to happen. Or God is limited and does not care. Those are the questions asked of him at the start. (Kind of like, "Do you beat your wife on Tuesdays or just Thursdays?") The interviewer's attempt at mounting a discussion concerning Theodicy at the outset makes me wonder how that plays into the book.

    I think Bell answers Ontologically that we have a limited sphere of understanding vs. God's sphere. If he seems "tossed about" it is because unlike some religious heads he tends to think out his answers before giving them and I believe the theodicy question to start with was unexpected. Since you've started the book have you seen him argue the theodicy question in it thus far?

    John does have the quote from Jesus in 14:3 that you refer to but it hardly answers the question of "those who have not heard."

    Thanks HT for continuing the dialogue on this and I hope to hear from you when you get the chance to read some more.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    I think scripture is pretty clear on the after life. Those that knew Christ in this life will be welcomed in to his kingdom, those that don't will be told to depart because I never knew you. I read part of Bell's book last night, rouglhly 20 to 30 pages and so far I haven't seen anything I feel like is scriptural in it. He's spent most of the beggining just posing questions with no real answers to them. Though he seems to be making clear that he believes God wouldn't create people if they were going to go to hell. In the first chapter he goes on about people who haven't heard the name of Jesus, and I admit that's one I struggle with, however, in John it's made clear that no one comes to the Father accept through the son. So without Jesus their is no finding one with God. I haven't seen anything that will refute that.

    I'll try and review the book more as I read more but it may be a few days with family coming in to visit. He's thrown around because he want answer straightforward questions. Part of it may be wanting to leave mystery, this controversy will be wonderful for book sales I'm sure. So the longer he can drag it out with out definitive answers the better for book sales.

    That video was sent to me too by a guy that use to love Rob Bell that is in seminary now. He's to the point where my friend can't defend him anymore. Bell really has left the main stream.
    What then do you do with Matthew 25:31ff when Jesus talks people being gathered to him who didn't even know him.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    I think scripture is pretty clear on the after life. Those that knew Christ in this life will be welcomed in to his kingdom, those that don't will be told to depart because I never knew you. I read part of Bell's book last night, rouglhly 20 to 30 pages and so far I haven't seen anything I feel like is scriptural in it. He's spent most of the beggining just posing questions with no real answers to them. Though he seems to be making clear that he believes God wouldn't create people if they were going to go to hell. In the first chapter he goes on about people who haven't heard the name of Jesus, and I admit that's one I struggle with, however, in John it's made clear that no one comes to the Father accept through the son. So without Jesus their is no finding one with God. I haven't seen anything that will refute that.

    I'll try and review the book more as I read more but it may be a few days with family coming in to visit. He's thrown around because he want answer straightforward questions. Part of it may be wanting to leave mystery, this controversy will be wonderful for book sales I'm sure. So the longer he can drag it out with out definitive answers the better for book sales.

    That video was sent to me too by a guy that use to love Rob Bell that is in seminary now. He's to the point where my friend can't defend him anymore. Bell really has left the main stream.
    What then do you do with Matthew 25:31ff when Jesus talks people being gathered to him who didn't even know him.

  9. #39
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    The guy doing the interview, Bashir or something, I have read is a Christian & an active member at Tim Keller's Presbyterian church in New York. It seemed to me that he definitely had an agenda going into the interview and came across as being very confrontational. His initial question about is God A) All-powerful but uncaring or B) All-caring but not all-powerful needs other possible answers, such as C) God is both all-powerful and caring. Jesus coming to this world in the first place proves that much. Either way, it goes back to the age old question of suffering & why bad things happen to good people--"If God really is powerful and loving, then why does He allow me to hurt so much?"

    The answer to that question actually is found in Scripture, though most people will say it isn't. But the answer lies in the final chapters of Job--after Job questioned God for all the heartache he had endured. God finally responds at the end and His reply takes a few chapters to cover, but God essentially tells Job, "I'm God and you're not. This is not for you to know because you're not Me." It's also important to note that God did not consider Job's questioning to be sinful and He ended up rewarding Job for his faithfulness.

    So the answer to the first question is, "God is all-powerful and all-loving." And I think Bell's answer about when we cry, God cries was spot-on.

    Bell stumbles and Bashir catches him on it when Bell essentially tries to have it both ways in regards to whether or not a person's response to Christ in this life determines their destiny in the next. Bell was dancing around that and, in my opinion, got caught.

    Overall, Bell came off in the same way he has always come off when I've read his stuff or listened to his teachings. There are times when the man is absolutely brilliant & excels tremendously at conveying his message in a thought-provoking, memorable way. Yet there are other times when he comes across, at best, as being confusing for confusing's sake (I'm gonna be different because different is cool). Or at worst (depending on the content of his book), Bell can come across as propagating false teaching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acemona View Post
    What then do you do with Matthew 25:31ff when Jesus talks people being gathered to him who didn't even know him.
    The "goats" of Matthew 25 are people who failed to follow in the serving footsteps of Jesus, which Jesus himself states in the latter verses of the chapter. He's saying, "I don't know you because you ignored me. When you failed to love those who were less fortunate, you were failing to love me."

    When Bell speaks in the interview of people who do not know Jesus, I take him to mean individuals living in the most remote places on the planet who have not been exposed to the gospel. I liked his answer when he said something to the affect of hoping that God's grace would be taken into account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acemona View Post
    What then do you do with Matthew 25:31ff when Jesus talks people being gathered to him who didn't even know him.
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...25&version=NIV

    Must have missed that part of verse 31. I'm not seeing it when reading it now.

  12. #42

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    the ff means and following. It is the whole story of taking care of the "least of these."

    To Randy's question, I am more talking about the Sheep. These are people that had not professed a belief in Jesus but were doing the right thing - they said they didn't know they were serving him. The Goats professed but didn't serve. So what gets you to heaven. Serving God by serving others or professing a certain belief statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acemona View Post
    the ff means and following. It is the whole story of taking care of the "least of these."

    To Randy's question, I am more talking about the Sheep. These are people that had not professed a belief in Jesus but were doing the right thing - they said they didn't know they were serving him. The Goats professed but didn't serve. So what gets you to heaven. Serving God by serving others or professing a certain belief statement.
    Saved only by grace through faith in Christ (see Ephesians 2: 8-9). A person who has been saved will have the works to back it up (see James 2: 14-26). Works don't save, but they do give validity to one's faith.

    I think this issue--faith vs. works--is the thrust of Matthew 25. I believe the sheep firmly believed in Jesus, but their works gave their faith a genuine identity. They simply did not realize that by serving "the least of these" they were serving Jesus. The goats too professed a faith in Christ, but it was merely for show. The goats talked a good game, but didn't have the deeds to prove it. The goats showed up for church & that was about it, whereas the sheep had a calendar with seven Sundays.

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