Paul Krugman: The Austerity Decision

Page 3 of Originally Posted by Jim Schue He's a dirtbag too, IMO. But the GOP has always been the party of big business, and they're the ones sending the jobs to... 41 comments | 1971 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue View Post
    He's a dirtbag too, IMO. But the GOP has always been the party of big business, and they're the ones sending the jobs to China.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue View Post
    Personally, I think it's an effort to make already large profits grossly more so -- again, greed.

    It's such a shame that American workers might want a decent living wage for the hard work they do.
    If you own a company that makes a product what is your goal? What is your responsibility?

    Let's use GE for example. Their #1 responsibility is to make money for their shareholders. Not to make a washing machine or a refrigerator, or dish washer. They just happen to do those things because their good at and that's how they make money. At no point is their job or duty to create jobs for US workers. If it makes since and increases their bottom line to manufacturer here then yes, they will. But for anyone to think it is what they are in business for your way off. It's the governments responsibility to make it favorable for them to create jobs here.
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    ORRRR, the government can make it less favorable to move jobs overseas. Take away tax breaks if you move jobs offshore, put tariffs on imports all of those kinds of things, you cannot let the companies hold you hostage. I agree, companies have no moral or patriotic obligations. Given that, the only ones that should be rewarded are those who show some.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynks66 View Post
    Just to clarify, how much profit can my company make before we are considered greedy?
    I'm no accountant, but even if I was, how likely would it be that I would have access to that information at any company?

    Quote Originally Posted by 75center View Post
    Save your breath, the people screaming about obscene profits will give a figure, only to discover the companies are making less than that!

    BTW, jealousy is the biggest problem facing this country.
    Greed by one hand begets jealousy on the other. But really, it's less about jealousy than simply surviving from paycheck to paycheck for most Americans. How are those people supposed to feel when they get a speech about tough economic times and expected raises being frozen and pending furloughs or layoffs from their bosses, then hearing later about the CEO getting an 8-figure bonus for making "tough decisions" such as destroying whole communities in an effort to boost a profit margin a quarter of a percent?

    Why can't there be a happy medium found? Maybe if workers weren't thrown table scraps and told they should just be happy to have a job those folks might actually feel like the hard work they do is valued by their bosses, rather than viewed as a necessary evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider View Post
    If you own a company that makes a product what is your goal? What is your responsibility?

    Let's use GE for example. Their #1 responsibility is to make money for their shareholders. Not to make a washing machine or a refrigerator, or dish washer. They just happen to do those things because their good at and that's how they make money. At no point is their job or duty to create jobs for US workers. If it makes since and increases their bottom line to manufacturer here then yes, they will. But for anyone to think it is what they are in business for your way off. It's the governments responsibility to make it favorable for them to create jobs here.
    What happened to the concept of good corporate stewardship? I blame the greed of shareholders for this. Why aren't these shareholders and board members demanding more ethics in the way their companies do business? Because they don't want to change the good-ol boy system that got them to this point.

    That businesses are willing to ship jobs overseas to places where the labor is little more than slaves shows just how little ethics matter, and how little regard (if any at all) those in the top income brackets have for those they consider "beneath" them. Sounds a lot like class warfare to me.

    What's even more amusing is that those people who make the decisions to take those 8-figure bonuses and shut down whole towns and cities are the first to shroud themselves in the flag and act like they are great American patriots.

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    It is amazing how so many Americans do not understand how business works or how they are so enivious of those who run big companies.
    Maybe you would like to go back to the days when the kings and nobles owned everything. Maybe you like failed systems where the government owns everything, to be run compassionatly for your own benefit.
    Oh well, maybe you will enjoy the new movie 'Clueless in WDC' starring Barack Obama as himself, supported by a cast of millions of like minded supporters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue View Post

    What happened to the concept of good corporate stewardship? I blame the greed of shareholders for this. Why aren't these shareholders and board members demanding more ethics in the way their companies do business? Because they don't want to change the good-ol boy system that got them to this point.

    That businesses are willing to ship jobs overseas to places where the labor is little more than slaves shows just how little ethics matter, and how little regard (if any at all) those in the top income brackets have for those they consider "beneath" them. Sounds a lot like class warfare to me.

    What's even more amusing is that those people who make the decisions to take those 8-figure bonuses and shut down whole towns and cities are the first to shroud themselves in the flag and act like they are great American patriots.
    If they didn't do that they wouldn't survive. And that's not because of the good ole boy system or the greed of the shareholders, it's because the American's like to talk about buying American made but when it comes down to it no one wants to pay the price for American made. They want to be paid like it but then when they buy something it's all about the price. We've done it to ourselves.

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    I think your wrong on the jealousy. I am not jealous at all. You apparently don't read other people's post. There was very little about jealousy in the post before yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsrider View Post
    If they didn't do that they wouldn't survive. And that's not because of the good ole boy system or the greed of the shareholders, it's because the American's like to talk about buying American made but when it comes down to it no one wants to pay the price for American made. They want to be paid like it but then when they buy something it's all about the price. We've done it to ourselves.
    I don't necessarily disagree with your point about "American-made," but by the same token, with wages not keeping up with the cost of living, what would you have us do?

    And on the bolded point, I cry "hogwash." Instead of paying out gross bonuses of tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to CEOs who don't do anything, why don't those jokers share in the sacrifice? That might also help the business survive, instead of Johnny Corporate Board type sending a sweetheart deal over to his buddy from the country club just to "take care of our own."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue View Post
    I'm no accountant, but even if I was, how likely would it be that I would have access to that information at any company?



    Greed by one hand begets jealousy on the other. But really, it's less about jealousy than simply surviving from paycheck to paycheck for most Americans. How are those people supposed to feel when they get a speech about tough economic times and expected raises being frozen and pending furloughs or layoffs from their bosses, then hearing later about the CEO getting an 8-figure bonus for making "tough decisions" such as destroying whole communities in an effort to boost a profit margin a quarter of a percent?

    Why can't there be a happy medium found? Maybe if workers weren't thrown table scraps and told they should just be happy to have a job those folks might actually feel like the hard work they do is valued by their bosses, rather than viewed as a necessary evil.



    What happened to the concept of good corporate stewardship? I blame the greed of shareholders for this. Why aren't these shareholders and board members demanding more ethics in the way their companies do business? Because they don't want to change the good-ol boy system that got them to this point.

    That businesses are willing to ship jobs overseas to places where the labor is little more than slaves shows just how little ethics matter, and how little regard (if any at all) those in the top income brackets have for those they consider "beneath" them. Sounds a lot like class warfare to me.

    What's even more amusing is that those people who make the decisions to take those 8-figure bonuses and shut down whole towns and cities are the first to shroud themselves in the flag and act like they are great American patriots.

    JS, jobs have values which are expressed in the form of salary/pay. Some jobs are great but they do not pay great. I assume you would put yours in that category. I do not like mine but it pays very well. You're probably the smarter of the two of us in that you do something you really enjoy.

    I do not think there is such a thing as "too much profit." I also do not believe a company has an obligation to its employees other than to provide a safe and legal work environment. Good companies figure out how to balance the equation between profits and keeping employees happy. However, if those employees feel they are not being treated fairly or paid enough then they are free to go look for another gig - if they're qualified. So if you CHOOSE to stay in the paper biz or you're not qualified to do something that pays better that's on you. It's on me for staying in a job that doesn't thrill me. If a company loses enough quality employees that result in lost business they will be forced to change their ways ie pay more to keep talent.

    You are correct that we shareholders are to blame for the lack of "good corporate stewardship." We demand returns and , often, we do not care how they get those returns.

    If the companies are playing by the rules then we either change something about us or we get our representatives to change the rules. Either way, it's on us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballfamily View Post
    It is amazing how so many Americans do not understand how business works or how they are so enivious of those who run big companies.
    Maybe you would like to go back to the days when the kings and nobles owned everything. Maybe you like failed systems where the government owns everything, to be run compassionatly for your own benefit.
    Oh well, maybe you will enjoy the new movie 'Clueless in WDC' starring Barack Obama as himself, supported by a cast of millions of like minded supporters.
    Since your snarky post rolled right in after mine, I'll treat it as a response to my post.

    I am not "envious" of those who run big companies. They have sold their soul to the devil in the name of greed. If anything, I pity them for their lack of willingness (or lack of interest) in seeing the impact their decisions have on typical Americans struggling to pay their bills. They'll get theirs, at some point, whether it be in this lifetime or the next.

    Most people aren't looking for handouts. I'm trying to put things in motion to start my own business, because I'm sure not going to be able to retire on my current salary (which hasn't gone up in three years, and while I'm supposed to get a small raise soon, it will probably only get me back to the point I was at relative to the cost of living four years ago, so I'm still spinning my wheels). I'm a relatively simple guy who'd just like to be able to pay my bills and have a little left over for the occasional fun thing, instead of having to skip a student loan payment to pay for a repair on my car, which has 200K miles on it.

    Your second part about "kings and nobles" as well as "government owns everything" is just slippery slope stuff, things taken to the extreme. All I'm asking for is a happy medium and some shared sacrifice in these difficult times, instead of the wealthiest of the wealthy going on about their personal lives as though there's nothing wrong with their greedy behavior, and no consequences. Why is that so hard to understand?

    And your last one, I don't watch many movies, and especially have no interest in any movie about today's political scene. Who wants to watch a movie and sit there and stir in anger for two hours? Not me.

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    Snarky, I like that. Good post.
    But what is fair? Fair is allowing one to use their talents to make as much as the market will bear. I realize to pay for a government there has to be taxes. With that said, what is unfair is a government taking what is yours to pay for what someone, who is able-bodied, should be doing for theirselves. Maybe it is time for a flat tax so that everyone is treated equally by the tax laws. Equality should include taxation, as there is nothing that says someone's tax dollars should be taxed at a higher rate than someone else's dollar. The progressive tax rate is only in the mind of someone who wants to take from a more economic productive citizen. A flat tax calls for equality under the law. Yet, I know what would happen is as time goes by tax breaks would be added, just as the tax code has changed over the years since the 16th Amendment was passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballfamily View Post
    Snarky, I like that. Good post.
    But what is fair? Fair is allowing one to use their talents to make as much as the market will bear. I realize to pay for a government there has to be taxes. With that said, what is unfair is a government taking what is yours to pay for what someone, who is able-bodied, should be doing for theirselves. Maybe it is time for a flat tax so that everyone is treated equally by the tax laws. Equality should include taxation, as there is nothing that says someone's tax dollars should be taxed at a higher rate than someone else's dollar. The progressive tax rate is only in the mind of someone who wants to take from a more economic productive citizen. A flat tax calls for equality under the law. Yet, I know what would happen is as time goes by tax breaks would be added, just as the tax code has changed over the years since the 16th Amendment was passed.
    There's a part of me that says a flat tax might be a good idea, but the fact is a flat tax is far more burdensome to those who make very little relative to the wealthy. The number I hear bandied about the most is 17 percent.

    For example:

    $30,000 annual salary translates to $24,900 with that rate

    $60,000 ends up at $49,800

    $100,000 ends up at $83,000

    $250,000 ends up at $207,500

    $1 million ends up at $830,000

    Once you figure in state taxes, sales taxes and other point-of-purchase taxes (such as at restaurants, hotels, etc.), it ends up being pretty darned regressive on folks on the poverty line and lower middle class.

    We have a progressive income tax system because those who make the most can actually bear that burden without it adversely affecting how they live their lives. It makes sense because it's the price one should pay for the privilege of living in a society that afforded them the opportunity to accumulate such vast wealth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bballfamily View Post
    Snarky, I like that. Good post.
    But what is fair? Fair is allowing one to use their talents to make as much as the market will bear. I realize to pay for a government there has to be taxes. With that said, what is unfair is a government taking what is yours to pay for what someone, who is able-bodied, should be doing for theirselves. Maybe it is time for a flat tax so that everyone is treated equally by the tax laws. Equality should include taxation, as there is nothing that says someone's tax dollars should be taxed at a higher rate than someone else's dollar. The progressive tax rate is only in the mind of someone who wants to take from a more economic productive citizen. A flat tax calls for equality under the law. Yet, I know what would happen is as time goes by tax breaks would be added, just as the tax code has changed over the years since the 16th Amendment was passed.
    As far as your comment about the "able-bodied," I'm guessing you're speaking to welfare. I don't like seeing folks living on the dole any more than anybody else. The times I've been unemployed and had to go "on the draw" have been paralyzingly embarrassing.

    But how do you break a cycle of generational welfare? You can't just throw them all out on the street, with no options for jobs.

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