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TheDeuce

Breonna Taylor Killed In Her Apartment by LMPD Officers

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32 minutes ago, John Anthony said:

Most of our DEA, FBI, CIA are former military.  We don’t see issues there.  Not every soldier would be cut out for LE but we do have tens of thousands of former MP’s, who were police in the military.  It goes back to what Deuce and I were saying about cops being afraid of minorities.  There was a huge push for the college crowd the last few decades.  That sounds nice on paper, but we need more diversity on patrol.  
 

A lot of good discussions on here, I think we’re all looking for solutions.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think the vast majority of DEA, FBI, and CIA agents are engaging with the general public in an authoritative manner with nearly the frequency that cops are. The DEA, FBI and CIA (at least from the outside looking in) are much more involved in large-scale and long-term monitoring & investigation, and because of that, they're not are having to deal with frustrations of the likes of belligerent speeders, angry people in the heat of domestic disputes, drunks, combative & mentally-ill vagrants, etc. They don't have to clean up dead bodies after a drunk driver smears some pedestrian across the sidewalk. They aren't dealing with having their own lingering anger issues or PTSD provoked on a day-to-day-to-day basis like cops are. That's where my concerns lie when it comes to ex-military serving as police officers.

I do absolutely agree with you though when you say you think we're all looking for solutions.

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12 minutes ago, Colonels_Wear_Blue said:

I don't disagree, but I also don't think the vast majority of DEA, FBI, and CIA agents are engaging with the general public in an authoritative manner with nearly the frequency that cops are. The DEA, FBI and CIA (at least from the outside looking in) are much more involved in large-scale and long-term monitoring & investigation, and because of that, they're not are having to deal with frustrations of the likes of belligerent speeders, angry people in the heat of domestic disputes, drunks, combative & mentally-ill vagrants, etc. They don't have to clean up dead bodies after a drunk driver smears some pedestrian across the sidewalk. They aren't dealing with having their own lingering anger issues or PTSD provoked on a day-to-day-to-day basis like cops are. That's where my concerns lie when it comes to ex-military serving as police officers.

I do absolutely agree with you though when you say you think we're all looking for solutions.

Fair points, great discussion.  My brother is a vet of 8 years and going so I have bias.  I tell ya what though, it might be completely irrational, but I prefer to fly commercial with a former military pilot as well.  

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5 hours ago, GrantNKY said:

Every single one of these incidents would have been avoided if the officers involved displayed even just one of those 6 characteristics. 

False, you can do everything correct and it can still go wrong. It takes two people making good decisions. When one refuses to cooperate, has a weapon and is putting others in danger it puts officers in a position to make a decision that 99% hope they never have to make.

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I agree with more training needed.  More psycological training.  Contempt of cop is a real problem.  Officers are taught in the academy that when you tell someone to put their hands up, they do.  What if they don't?  You scream louder.  Then what?  A lot of these police-related deaths begin with resisting arrest.  Yes, they shoudn't resist.  But they are.  Then what?  More training is needed on this.  How to handle the situation without an incident.  

The state pays $3,000 in KLEPF money each year in exchange for 40 hours of training.  The formula needs to change.  The more training you complete, the more KLEPF money you get.  40 hours gets you $1K.  80 hours gets you $2K.  You can add more to the amount but there needs to be a formula that encourages officers to complete more training.

I'm mixed on the military making better officers.  They tend to be better tactical officers but not as good in verbal judo or communication.  Communication and logic are the two things agencies should look at before anything else when hiring.

Police departments want more minority candidates.  They just aren't applying.  I know of one who became a police officer in the small town he grew up in and was immediately called an "Uncle Tom" by the Black community.  After a few years, he moved over to the state police so he could be assigned to a different county.  Minority hires in small/rural areas are rare because of the lack of applicants.

College degrees for police officers are overrated.  On the job training, communication, and logic trump a piece of paper.  

You can't leave a body camera on for the entire shift.  Cities are already paying through the teeth for hard drives to store their video.  The video has to be kept for a minimum of weeks, months, or even years.  But there has to be policy in place for when it is turned on and consequences if it isn't.  I have no problem with termination if the camera isn't on in a police-related shooting.  There has to be more teeth when it comes to body cameras not being on.

A lot of good police officers got out of the business after Ferguson because of a false narrative that was painted by the media.  It led to riots, injuries, and deaths.  The Justice Department ruled that "hands up don't shoot" was false.  The uproar over what was determined to be a "justified shooting" sent a lot of good, experienced, and qualified officers into retirement or other professions.  By the thousands.  Police departments lowered hiring standards to fill the gaps.  Some are paying for this now.

We ask the police in this nation to do too much.  They aren't mental health professionals.  They should not be anywhere near non-violent mental health warrants, transports, and evals.  There are some juvenile matters they don't need to be involved with such as truancy.  

Somewhere, our police went from being law officers to problem solvers. They are being sent to calls they shouldn't because adults are not capable of solving problems themselves.  Neighbor's dog takes a crap in your yard, the police are called instead of neighbors talking it over. Neighbor plays their music too loud, police get called. 10 year old kid won't get out of bed and go to school, police get called.  The list is long and getting longer.

The police have to get this figured out and figured out quick.  There are issues of trust. There are issues of training.  And there are issues of the police being told no.  Society has changed and not for the better.  Defiance is applauded. The court system is broken. The nation is divided.  Police training has not kept up.  

I have a lot of friends who live 100-200 miles from Louisville and nowhere Kenosha, Minneapolis, NYC, or Dallas.  They are getting out of the profession en masse and it's their communities that will suffer.  Who's going to fill their shoes?  Are we safer because of it?

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5 hours ago, The Scribe said:

I agree with more training needed.  More psycological training.  Contempt of cop is a real problem.  Officers are taught in the academy that when you tell someone to put their hands up, they do.  What if they don't?  You scream louder.  Then what?  A lot of these police-related deaths begin with resisting arrest.  Yes, they shoudn't resist.  But they are.  Then what?  More training is needed on this.  How to handle the situation without an incident.  

What's the magic training that will make the violently uncooperative, cooperative?

Some people (more than most can imagine) aren't going to cooperate no matter what training or de-escalation techniques are used.

 

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9 hours ago, Jumper_Dad said:

False, you can do everything correct and it can still go wrong. It takes two people making good decisions. When one refuses to cooperate, has a weapon and is putting others in danger it puts officers in a position to make a decision that 99% hope they never have to make.

Which one of the most visible recent events did the cop do everything right?

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5 hours ago, The Scribe said:

I’m mixed on the military making better officers.  They tend to be better tactical officers but not as good in verbal judo or communication.  Communication and logic are the two things agencies should look at before anything else when hiring.

This is what I was talking about when I mentioned military. 

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38 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

Which one of the most visible recent events did the cop do anything right?

Fixed it for you Deuce. 

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9 hours ago, TheDeuce said:

Which one of the most visible recent events did the cop do everything right?

When was the last time you did everything right that involved your job? If you aren't looking back at situations that you have at your job and you're not going to be self critical then you are a disengaged employee. I've got projects that I look back on from when I started and I shake my head, thinking I could have done something differently or more efficiently. 

 

Thankfully my job doesn't involve policing anyone. 

 

When everyone starts to realize that when a human puts another human in a tough position to make quick, snap decisions, then maybe we can have some progress. 

 

The blame for the Breonna Taylor incident still goes both ways. It falls on Bre, herself, because she associated with criminals. Those criminals put her in a bad situation. 

 

The no-knock warrants created a snap decision from the criminal element on scene. No-knock warrants need to go!

 

With every recent high profile police confrontation, I'm absolutely sure that the human element on both sides wish they would have made different decisions. 

 

There isn't a world that has no consequences. As soon as we (the citizenry) realize that compliance with authority will lead to de-escalation, expect more of the same. 

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23 minutes ago, Kentucky Windage said:

When was the last time you did everything right that involved your job?

I’ll stop you right there...

Me making a mistake at work doesn’t cost someone their life. Not to mention, most of these incidents aren’t a mistake, they are shooting to kill. 

You don’t get to “make mistakes” that cost lives. There is no amount of error that is acceptable when it comes to that. Perks of the job. 

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7 minutes ago, TheDeuce said:

I’ll stop you right there...

Me making a mistake at work doesn’t cost someone their life. Not to mention, most of these incidents aren’t a mistake, they are shooting to kill. 

You don’t get to “make mistakes” that cost lives. There is no amount of error that is acceptable when it comes to that. Perks of the job. 

So your expectation is perfection. 

 

Humans are an imperfect creature. 

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57 minutes ago, Kentucky Windage said:

When was the last time you did everything right that involved your job? If you aren't looking back at situations that you have at your job and you're not going to be self critical then you are a disengaged employee. I've got projects that I look back on from when I started and I shake my head, thinking I could have done something differently or more efficiently. 

 

Thankfully my job doesn't involve policing anyone. 

 

When everyone starts to realize that when a human puts another human in a tough position to make quick, snap decisions, then maybe we can have some progress. 

 

The blame for the Breonna Taylor incident still goes both ways. It falls on Bre, herself, because she associated with criminals. Those criminals put her in a bad situation. 

 

The no-knock warrants created a snap decision from the criminal element on scene. No-knock warrants need to go!

 

With every recent high profile police confrontation, I'm absolutely sure that the human element on both sides wish they would have made different decisions. 

 

There isn't a world that has no consequences. As soon as we (the citizenry) realize that compliance with authority will lead to de-escalation, expect more of the same. 

How long are people going to continue to say this was served as a no knock warrant?  It wasn't and that's well documented on both sides.  Also no knock warrants serve a purpose and outright getting rid of them would be a big mistake.  That's why it won't happen.

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3 minutes ago, sportsfan41 said:

How long are people going to continue to say this was served as a no knock warrant?  It wasn't and that's well documented on both sides.  Also no knock warrants serve a purpose and outright getting rid of them would be a big mistake.  That's why it won't happen.

There is not 100% clarity on either side of that issue. Until I'm provided with something that documents otherwise (police announcing themselves) then I will give the victim the benefit of the doubt. 

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Just to add to what I previously said.  I personally know of individuals that have served dozens of search warrants over the past year.  None of them were no knock warrants, they are NOT common.  Saying no knock warrants are bad and dangerous, due to a recent event that was inaccurately portrayed as something it wasn't is a knee jerk reaction and a method of exploiting people's emotions.  

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7 minutes ago, Kentucky Windage said:

There is not 100% clarity on either side of that issue. Until I'm provided with something that documents otherwise (police announcing themselves) then I will give the victim the benefit of the doubt. 

Well Breonna Taylor can't answer, but Kenneth Walker, who shot at police, has.

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