Kobe vs. Jordan

I don't want to thread jack anymore but this is proving to be a great debate(for me anyways) and discussion about who is better and why. I know 99.9% of you guys will pick Jordan and while most of you don't believe it, I can be convinced that MJ is better but to this day..... I have yet to hear anyone convince me that MJ is that much better than Kobe. People(MJ fanatics) act like if they played a game of 21 or 32 that MJ would skunk Kobe or that Kobe wouldn't score(slight embellishment on my part but still) or never win a game. I beg to differ. I will say that MJ had a better career than Kobe and MJ is better statistically in some categories and Kobe is better than MJ in some categories. I don't like MJ. Never have never will, but I can be convinced that MJ is truly better than Kobe if presented with a good and well thought out argument that I have yet to see. I don't know if this thread will take off but I know Cats will answer at the very least. I know if the Lakers lose that this thread will be rendered useless in most of your eyes also but I say..... whatever. If championships are the standard then Bill Russell is the greatest ever and Robert Horry is better than Kobe.

Now....on with the discussion.

Snippets from discussions on facebook I have seen. These aren't my words but I think that some are valid points. They are edited for clarity and the facebook users will remain anonymous. What's funny is that one of these facebook users is a well known former Wildcat. These next series of posts and quotations are all from facebook discussions.

"Name one thing Mike can do better than KOBE. Maybe the low post game. Other than that, Kobe is a more complete ball handler, shooter, and passer. They are even on defense. MJ was the first world basketball icon so he is viewed as better. Kobe's pivot game might be a little better. Not by much. I also think the leagues talent/skill level has went up. Better, faster, stronger players. That's why this next 3Peat that Phil is in the middle of will be so amazing."

"I was a Pistons fan and I hated MJ, but I respected the fact that he worked harder and played tougher. All of you Kobe haters show your ignorance when you don't give him his just due. Just wait until after this next 3Peat, and he has 7 championships. What will you detractors say then? And I don't even like the Lakers. But I know who the best player in the NBA has been since MJ."

"I'm not knocking his game. Yeah, he's the 2nd best SG that ever played but he will never be better than Jordan!"

"Maybe not in your eyes, but in 2 years after Kobe and Phil have another 3Peat, what will you say then? Ask yourself the question at the end of his career."

"I will still put him 2nd because if there was no Jordan it wouldn't be a Kobe. Jordan was the model & everybody models their game after him. That's why he will always be #1 because he changed the game."

"Who do you think MJ modeled his game after? Every player emulates someone. Basketball didn't start with Mike you know. He patterned his game after Dr. J, David Thompson all of those cats. The Big O., etc. Kobe perfected what MJ started and you don't like that. When Mike came in the league the older cats like my father and your father probably said ...oh hes not all that, etc. but we were like he's the truth. All I'm saying is take away your bias, which isn't possible, and examine the cat's game. Kobe's the truth. MJ didn't change the game he made it a global thing. No player will ever be able to grow it bigger than MJ did from a global perspective but Kobe can win more , score more, and be a better ball player, and Kobe is committed to doing it. Plain and simple."

"You got a point there but the league was more physical when MJ & others before him played. If you look at the game films they were allowed to hand check out on the perimeter. You can't touch the guards in the league now. That's why I say MJ is #1."

"You could argue skill sets all day long. They both are great. At the end of the day basketball is a team game and MJ made everyone else better. He could put a team on his back like no other. No way to know who's better, but if we're picking teams, I'll take MJ and you can have Kobe."

"I am a little lost as to how historical revisionist paint Michael Jordan. This guy was not a good team guy. Practically every guy who played with him dislikes him. The guy is a great player. He is also borderline classless."

"Hand checks were allowed because of illegal defensive rules. Imagine that the NFL changes its rules and says that every wide receiver must be defended man-to-man...no more zone coverage schemes. That means someone is going to rewrite every record that Jerry Rice currently owns. Does that make that receiver better than Rice? I do not think so. Basketball was physical because there were ridiculous illegal defense rules put in place to heighten the skill deficient players, i.e. Michael Jordan, who can't shoot nearly as well as Kobe Bryant or Oscar Robertson or Jerry West or I can go on and on."

"MJ is not better than Kobe Bryant at any phase of the game. Meanwhile, Kobe is superior is a number of area. MJ was NEVER a great teammate. MJ NEVER won when other great players were at their height (he was not even a factor in playoff series through much of the 1980s). The 1990s may be arguably the worst decade, in means of the quality of players, in the modern history of basketball. I will take the 1960s and this period on any day. A 6th seed in the West won the NBA Championship during MJ's run. An 8th seed reached the NBA Finals in the 1990s. It is a pathetically weak era. Yet somehow the guy is the greatest because he won 6 titles in one of the game's weakest eras. Amazing! If championships are the standard, why aren't we celebrating Bill Russell. MJ disciples cherry pick important numbers and stats. Kobe's career is speaking for itself. This year could be #5...and counting."

"Come on man, hand checking is not allowed on the perimeter when a player makes a move. When MJ played it was allowed. You're right MJ didn't play with great players he didn't need them because he made his teammates better. Who has Kobe made better?... I'll wait?"

"Wow, did you say MJ was "skill deficient"?? It can be argued that Kobe is better, but Jordan.... skill deficient he's not."

"I am accurately saying that isolation basketball is not basketball. I am saying that throughout MJ's entire career the NBA forced isolation. It is a challenge for me, knowing the sport of basketball, to proclaim a guy who did not face constant double teams, in the manner that greats like Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, and the Big O did, is simply the greatest ever because Spike Lee said that he was in a commercial. The facts do not support such a proclamation.

MJ was a non-factor when other great players were at their height. You can say that he was young. However, Magic was young. Kobe was young. Kareem was young. Nonetheless, they succeeded. MJ did not. This is not an opinion statement.

Kobe Bryant is a superior player from a skill set perspective when compared to MJ or any other shooting guard. No player has ever owned the full package in the manner that Kobe does. If you are going to tell me that MJ shoots the ball better than Kobe, I know that you are lying to yourself. If you are going to tell me that MJ's midrange game is even comparable to Kobe's, I am certain that you are dreaming. Kobe owns a superior basketball skill set.

Name the second best, third best, fourth best shooting guard in MJ's era. Then, you begin to understand that MJ was facing a lesser quality of player than Kobe is. Furthermore, the league forced isolation basketball. So hand checking was allowed. I would take getting hand checked 30 feet away from the basket as compared to being double and triple teamed on any day of the week. What difference does hand checking make 30-35 feet away from the rim? Oh yes, MJ can not shoot, thus rendering him useless out there. In contrast, Kobe Bryant takes turnaround jumpers from 30 feet and the ball does not hit the rim. He has a SUPERIOR skill set."