Why is Kneeling disrespectful?

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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    Yes or No, is it okay for anyone to kneel and pray to Allah during the National Anthem?
    Yes. I said it is not a protest if they said they were praying.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfTroy View Post
    Yes. I said it is not a protest if they said they were praying.
    Would praying for better race relations and/or equality be a protest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    Would praying for better race relations and/or equality be a protest?
    No. If this was happening, what do think the reaction would be?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CincySportsFan View Post
    Had a lively discussion with some co-workers today about this. Like PP1 has already stated, in just about every other situation, kneeling is a sign of reverence.

    I will admit, my stance on this whole issue has shifted over the past day or two. Instead of just relying on shared Facebook posts, I've tried to do some "research" of my own. Some reinforced what I already knew, but some was new. But ultimately it was the following analogies that really made me think.

    Let's say the government comes out and says they're considering removing all mention of "In God We Trust", and are looking at doing it the first of the new year. Now say you had a ballplayer, who's father was a minister, and he came out and said "I'm going to kneel during the anthem, to protest the removal of God from our government." While perhaps a little odd, you'd certain understand his reasoning and motives.

    Or, let's say there's a ballplayer who's father had been in the service (for argument's sake, let's say a veteran of the Vietnam). Say he came home with undiagnosed PTSD, started drinking, divorced his wife and left his family, eventually became homeless before finally killing himself. Now imagine his son (the ballplayer) on the anniversary of his father's death comes out and says our government doesn't do enough for our soldiers. "They don't get proper health care, benefits or job opportunities when they get back home. They deserve more than what they get if/when they get home. I'm going to kneel during the anthem until the treatment of our honorable men and women in the armed services improves." Same result here...you'd understand his reasoning and motive.

    In both instances, I firmly believe there would be not only hundreds, but likely thousands (especially in the military example) of people in the stadium joining in. Many would not consider the act of kneeling in those examples as disrespectful of the flag/anthem/military. In fact, as the message got out, I could even see there being peer pressure TO KNEEL. ("What do you have against helping our military?!? Do you feel they don't deserve it?!?" - gasp)

    So, why is it considered disrespectful today? If you could see either one of those two examples occurring without the uproar going on now...it's because it's not ultimately HOW the players/people are protesting...it's WHAT they're protesting. Now you're issuing your own degrees of what's worthy of protesting and what's not.

    The other issues that I hear are "These guys are millionaires, what do they have to protest?" or "They're supposed to be role models, they're setting a bad example." To which I would reply...wouldn't the world be better off if more rich people cared about "the common man"? I mean, not in the token sense of giving a $100 tip to a waitress. But, genuinely cared about their community (and I'm not referring to a gated community) and trying to do things to improve it. And as far as a role model, really? You want to teach your son (or daughter) to NOT care? You want your athletes to play the game, make their money, drive away in their expensive cars and forget about everyone else? Come on, you know the answer to that.

    All of that has impacted how I've looked at the situation going on right now. And, as I said before, I have shifted how I've felt. Is it the method I would've chosen? Probably not. But, I understand.

    The problems that I have with what's going on now, is that there's too many "generalities". I hated Kaepernick's pig socks, because it implied that all police are pigs. He may have had a specific instance in mind, but that's not what came across to me.

    And the other problem that I don't like, is that I've yet to hear suggestions for solutions. I understand you feel there's a problem. But, how do we go about solving it? From your perspective, what do we need to do to make inroads? Just talking about the fact that there's a problem is really just lip service in the grand scheme of trying to enact change. And again, be specific. Saying we need to have racial justice doesn't really do a whole lot, even though I may agree with you.

    ***Sorry for the length folks. Just went back and reread what I wrote. Never intended for it to end up this long. ***
    Excellent post. I, too, have changed my thinking on this issue over time and after doing a lot of reading about it and talking with my Vietnam vet father.

    As as far as solutions, awareness has to be the first step. There are still too many that don't see the problems that blacks and some other minorities face.

  5. #35
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    What is t the announcer says prior to the anthem?
    Ladies and gentlemen. Please stand up, remove your caps to honor the men and women who have served our country?
    Never heard them say, let's honor the cops, racism, injustice or any other issue in today's world?

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    I would say kneeling is reserved for showing reverence for someone ie when a guy proposes to his wife or before God ie Every Knee Shall Bend or if you are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, before the Eucharist.

    We stand to honor someone or something or to show that it deserves honor such as when a judge enters a court room "All rise!" or when the President enters the chambers of Congress for State of the Union or when we say the pledge of allegiance or when the National Anthem is about to be played. To not stand for a judge or the flag or the National Anthem is to basically say they are not deserving of such honor which is why kneeling during the National Anthem annoys me to no end. If you want to protest while under the spotlight of being on TV, fine, do something in the end zone after scoring a touch down or what ever but respect the flag and national anthem since they are symbols of why you have the freedom to do such protests.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    I want to be sure I understand.

    Is it okay for anyone to kneel (NO) and pray (YES - silently) during the National Anthem?
    What you are supposed to do and what is required of military to do is in US Code. As posted in other thread:

    36 U.S. Code SS 31 - National anthem | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Now in today's world people are sloppy when it come to the Anthem, but most of them know they are to at least stand and show solemn respect. Intentionally drawing attention to yourself by intentionally not standing and not either being silent (possibly in prayer) or singing along during the Anthem ) is viewed, by some, as the same type of action as Odell Beckham's post TD antics of this weekend.

    Maybe its the 'look at me' world of today. Any action that is intentionally designed to draw personal attention during the anthem is 'disrespectful'. Respectful or not - if you do these things intentionally - your a jerk. Its just not the right time to 'make a point'.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert View Post
    I would say kneeling is reserved for showing reverence for someone ie when a guy proposes to his wife or before God ie Every Knee Shall Bend or if you are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, before the Eucharist.

    We stand to honor someone or something or to show that it deserves honor such as when a judge enters a court room "All rise!" or when the President enters the chambers of Congress for State of the Union or when we say the pledge of allegiance or when the National Anthem is about to be played. To not stand for a judge or the flag or the National Anthem is to basically say they are not deserving of such honor which is why kneeling during the National Anthem annoys me to no end. If you want to protest while under the spotlight of being on TV, fine, do something in the end zone after scoring a touch down or what ever but respect the flag and national anthem since they are symbols of why you have the freedom to do such protests.
    Well done.

    Another example:

    28 Southern Gentleman Traditions (That Still Apply Today) - One Country

    14… stand when she walks into the room
    As a sign of respect, men used to stand when a lady, dignitary, or elderly person walked in the room. Today, when a woman comes into a room, or to the table, a gentleman should stand up to acknowledge her. Period. Standing for her shows they are attentive and they care.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrasscard View Post
    Now in today's world people are sloppy when it come to the Anthem, but most of them know they are to at least stand and show solemn respect. Intentionally drawing attention to yourself by intentionally not standing and not either being silent (possibly in prayer) or singing along during the Anthem ) is viewed, by some, as the same type of action as Odell Beckham's post TD antics of this weekend.
    Wait a minute, so singing along with the anthem is now wrong, too? I guess I've missed all the complaints about how the stadium crowds throughout the years are disrespecting the flag/country/anthem/military by singing along. Because every game I've ever been to, there's been people doing it. Every. Single. Time.

    And you know what...I've done it too. Probably not going to stop, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CincySportsFan View Post
    Wait a minute, so singing along with the anthem is now wrong, too? I guess I've missed all the complaints about how the stadium crowds throughout the years are disrespecting the flag/country/anthem/military by singing along. Because every game I've ever been to, there's been people doing it. Every. Single. Time.

    And you know what...I've done it too. Probably not going to stop, either.
    Sorry, my complex sentences may be too complex (and wrong).

    Singing along or being silent are both good. Sorry for the confusion.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    Yes or No, is it okay for anyone to kneel and pray to Allah during the National Anthem?
    Mahmood Abdul Rauf did that in 1994 while playing for the Nuggets. Maybe he was playing for the Kings.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by B-Ball-fan View Post
    One of the most honest, well thought out, and thought provoking posts I've read in quite awhile. I hope that me advocating what you're saying doesn't turn anyone away from taking it to heart. I just needed to say how good it is, but please everyone no matter where you are on this, dude here has said a mouthful.
    Eh'hem, I am the one that brought this up in the first place.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post
    In that case the State has detained you.

    I think it is Apples and Oranges.
    I was in court as a spectator to support a friend. When the judge came in and they said, "All Rise," I stood.

    Quote Originally Posted by CincySportsFan View Post
    Wait a minute, so singing along with the anthem is now wrong, too? I guess I've missed all the complaints about how the stadium crowds throughout the years are disrespecting the flag/country/anthem/military by singing along. Because every game I've ever been to, there's been people doing it. Every. Single. Time.

    And you know what...I've done it too. Probably not going to stop, either.
    Are you being obtuse? He gave two examples inside parentheses when silence is not required. Singing along was one.

    Quote Originally Posted by PP1 View Post
    I kneel when I pray. I would kneel if I met the Queen. My catholic friends tell me they kneel to kiss the hand of a high ranking Bishop. I knelt before my wife.

    Sitting during the National Anthem is a different story, but in all other cases, when we kneel it is a sign of humility as you exalt whatever you are kneeling to.

    I understand the answer of "it's the intent behind the kneel" but why is the action itself seen as a disrespect?
    Do you kneel when you burp? You probably say excuse me. The polite, respectful thing to do in a given circumstance is determined by convention. Different situations require different actions. There is a protocol of etiquette for American citizens when the anthem is played. The military are required to do different things than civilians. To break with this prescribed protocol because you are ignorant, or lazy may be overlooked as sloppy. To INTENTIONALLY break with this protocol because you are protesting conditions in your country is rude, impolite, and disrespectful. It is by definition.

    I think Kap should just own it. He did it to draw attention to his cause. He should accept the response of people because he did intentionally do a disrespectful thing.

    BTW, American citizens don't kneel to the Queen. We are not her subjects. A gentle handshake is just fine. British citizens don't even kneel. Men give a short bow of head and shoulders and women curtsey. PP1, These days you would be seen as very polite if you did kneel to the Queen but if we were closer to Revolutionary days you might not fair so well in the presence of the colonials.

    And I agree with the consensus expressed thus far, @CincySportsFan's post was well-worth the read.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegrasscard View Post
    Sorry, my complex sentences may be too complex (and wrong).

    Singing along or being silent are both good. Sorry for the confusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgrappler View Post
    Are you being obtuse? He gave two examples inside parentheses when silence is not required. Singing along was one.
    Sorry, I didn't respond earlier. Yes, I unfortunately read that wrong. I took it that if you weren't standing silently and were singing, that was inappropriate. My apologies @Bluegrasscard

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PP1 View Post
    Eh'hem, I am the one that brought this up in the first place.
    I agree and I'm thankful that you did, as I had been thinking similar thoughts as you regarding kneeling and was happy that someone finally so eloquently presented it, and impressively that someone most appropriately was you.

    My apologies if I hadn't yet given you a thumbs up about it, and I promise that I hadn't intended on devaluing what you have initiated with this discussion when giving accolades to CincySportsFan for having so wonderfully expanded on that which you had begun.

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