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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrantNKY View Post
    The Lebron James of football? I get what you are trying to say but you could have used a better analogy.
    Ha obviously he is not a star and one of the best ever to play. It's just funny how always heard how James doesn't have enough help. It's the same with Dalton. It's either he doesn't have enough talent to throw to, not a good run game, not a good line. Basically anytime he doesn't produce it's not him, it's cause he doesn't have enough around him. Basically people want a perfect team around him. People say if he has a line, good run game, good guys to throw to then he can be good. Shouldn't that be a big sign that maybe he is not the type of qb we need to get over the top. Doesn't that show he doesn't make players around him better. He needs players around him to make him better. For few qbs have all the stuff people say Dalton needs.
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  2. #77
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    @futurecoach, I love that you are passionate about the Bengals. I am too. I love the fact that you'd like to see them do better. I would too. But, I can't help but feel that there is nothing Andy Dalton can do, short of winning the Super Bowl each and every year, that will make you change your tune on him. Everything he does always seems to have a counter argument.

    If Dalton makes a quick release = Dalton needs to go through his progressions
    If Dalton takes a sack while going through progressions = Dalton’s got to throw it away there
    If Dalton throws it away = Dalton’s got to give his receivers a chance
    If Dalton throws it up for his receivers to make a play = Dalton takes too many chances
    If Dalton scrambles out of the pocket = Dalton needs to trust his line and stay in the pocket
    If Dalton gets sacked, staying in the pocket = Dalton needs to use his legs and scramble
    If Dalton yells at teammates for bad play = Dalton’s cancerous, needs to worry about his own play
    If Dalton doesn’t yell at teammates for bad play = Dalton’s not a leader, needs to call them out
    If Dalton gets angry on the field = Dalton’s too emotional, needs to calm down
    If Dalton doesn’t get angry on the field = Dalton doesn’t care
    If Dalton has 4th quarter comebacks = Dalton’s the reason we were behind in the first place
    If Dalton doesn’t have 4th quarter comebacks = Dalton’s not able to play in crunch time
    If Bengals win = It was because of the rest of the team
    If Bengals lose = It was because of Dalton

    I'm not quoting you on any of those. But that's just the way it feels. I guess it's whether you look at the glass half-full, or half-empty. I don't know. But the NFL is a hard sport to succeed in. I mean, if we're looking at winning the Super Bowl as the pinnacle of success...even the great Tom Brady has failed more than he's succeeded. Every playoff team, with the exception of one, will end their season with a loss.

    Aaron Rodgers has 1 Super Bowl win. Same with Drew Brees. Both are great QB's. Both are headed to Canton. Yet, on the flip side, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have the same number of SB wins...which proves you can win without having to have a HOF QB too. Dalton is, what most people readily admit, somewhere in the middle of the pack. To expect perfection on every play, in every game, from a single player is misguided thinking. It's just not going to happen. You hope it happens. But you have to realize that mistakes are going to occur. You just hope that AS A TEAM, you are able to overcome them.

    Sorry for the rant. And again, I hope this didn't come off as a personal attack on you, futurecoach. Like I said, I love your passion and enthusiasm for the team. There's a lot of people out there who just like to bash the Bengals and could care less if they got any better. You are not one of them.

  3. #78
    UKMustangFan's Avatar
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    ^Nailed it.

    Every Bengals thread on here devolves into another "Andy Dalton stinks" thread. Rinse and repeat and regardless of outcome, next Sunday's thread will quickly devolve into the same.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by CincySportsFan View Post
    @futurecoach, I love that you are passionate about the Bengals. I am too. I love the fact that you'd like to see them do better. I would too. But, I can't help but feel that there is nothing Andy Dalton can do, short of winning the Super Bowl each and every year, that will make you change your tune on him. Everything he does always seems to have a counter argument.

    If Dalton makes a quick release = Dalton needs to go through his progressions
    If Dalton takes a sack while going through progressions = Daltonís got to throw it away there
    If Dalton throws it away = Daltonís got to give his receivers a chance
    If Dalton throws it up for his receivers to make a play = Dalton takes too many chances
    If Dalton scrambles out of the pocket = Dalton needs to trust his line and stay in the pocket
    If Dalton gets sacked, staying in the pocket = Dalton needs to use his legs and scramble
    If Dalton yells at teammates for bad play = Daltonís cancerous, needs to worry about his own play
    If Dalton doesnít yell at teammates for bad play = Daltonís not a leader, needs to call them out
    If Dalton gets angry on the field = Daltonís too emotional, needs to calm down
    If Dalton doesnít get angry on the field = Dalton doesnít care
    If Dalton has 4th quarter comebacks = Daltonís the reason we were behind in the first place
    If Dalton doesnít have 4th quarter comebacks = Daltonís not able to play in crunch time
    If Bengals win = It was because of the rest of the team
    If Bengals lose = It was because of Dalton

    I'm not quoting you on any of those. But that's just the way it feels. I guess it's whether you look at the glass half-full, or half-empty. I don't know. But the NFL is a hard sport to succeed in. I mean, if we're looking at winning the Super Bowl as the pinnacle of success...even the great Tom Brady has failed more than he's succeeded. Every playoff team, with the exception of one, will end their season with a loss.

    Aaron Rodgers has 1 Super Bowl win. Same with Drew Brees. Both are great QB's. Both are headed to Canton. Yet, on the flip side, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have the same number of SB wins...which proves you can win without having to have a HOF QB too. Dalton is, what most people readily admit, somewhere in the middle of the pack. To expect perfection on every play, in every game, from a single player is misguided thinking. It's just not going to happen. You hope it happens. But you have to realize that mistakes are going to occur. You just hope that AS A TEAM, you are able to overcome them.

    Sorry for the rant. And again, I hope this didn't come off as a personal attack on you, futurecoach. Like I said, I love your passion and enthusiasm for the team. There's a lot of people out there who just like to bash the Bengals and could care less if they got any better. You are not one of them.
    Your good. I enjoy hearing others opinions. I understand people have other opinions and they share theres and I share back.

    Some people who may not have been back on the site back then. May not know I was actually one of Daltons biggest supporters on here. Me and someone else use to get in big arguments about him. I use to talk about how his career path was similar to Brees. I use to talk about how it's way to early to judge him fairly. Quite honestly and this seems weird it wasn't until after the 2014 season and in the pro bowl that i changed my opinion on him. Watching him and other qbs in that game. Other qbs even with no chemistry with wrs looked good. He goes in there and looks terrible. He even got booed by pro bowl fans that day.

    Then in 2015 I thought he was proving me wrong. He had a good line, good skill guys, good backs and was having a great year. Yet even with all that he still had same struggles as similar situations in the past. The offense did nothing in a win against the Steelers where they only scored 17 points. The Bengals then play a prime time game against the Texans and he doesn't play well and only scored 10 points. Then lose the next week to the Cardinals on prime time too. He had everything around him offensively but still same struggles in biggest games when all eyes on him.

    So no I have lost all trust in him being a guy who can get us to win big games in big moments no matter what is around him or who coaches. I think it's a problem that basically everyone seems to admit he needs everything around him to be perfect to look good. He needs a good line, good backs, good receivers. He has been blessed with more talent around him in his first 7 years than most qbs. It's sad imo we need better players to make him better. When imo a good qb helps make his teammates better. I don't know if anyone can say Dalton makes others around him better or even at least look better.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKMustangFan View Post
    ^Nailed it.

    Every Bengals thread on here devolves into another "Andy Dalton stinks" thread. Rinse and repeat and regardless of outcome, next Sunday's thread will quickly devolve into the same.
    He is the qb and deserves to be talked about. I'm not the only one spending time talking about it. Former qbs on sports radio also been saying similar stuff after games. This is a thread on the Bengals, and with him being the qb. Who is going to be a main talking point like it or not.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecoach View Post
    He has had 2 years where people can say ha was better than just average 2013 and 2015. Even in those years with good lines, skill guys, etc. He looked exactly the same in the sitautuons he struggles in. Kind of like a front runner. When things are going well he is awesome. Hence his record against bad teams. When things start going down hill especially against good teams he struggles. Don't you think it's sad we may know the type of game Dalton will have against a good team by the end of the first quarter? That's because he is not someone who figures it out and gets better as the game goes on. Or the Bengals leading and the other team makes a few big plays in a row and get the lead. It's rare at that point that Dalton makes a play to change the momentum back. In fact he usually adds to it by then pressing and making a bad play himself.

    So while yes I think a new coach would be good for the team as a whole. I don't think a new coach is going make Dalton the type of qb who handles the big moments well against good teams. His lack of leadership and demeanor shows that in 7 years so far.

    I hope Dalton proves me wrong because he is the type of person you want to see do well. However the book on him has basically been the same all 7 years. Plus honestly I'm tired of hearing well he needs this or that. Basically he needs a perfect team around him. A great line, great skill guys, great backs. As long as he has that he can look good. Don't you think that's a problem? Shouldn't the qb help make his teammates better, and not the other way around? Then Even when he had all that in 2013 and 2015 he still struggled in those moments.
    Just one example... Alex Smith with Andy Reid... whole different level QB... I think a guy like Reid would make a world of difference...

  7. #82
    UKMustangFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecoach View Post
    He is the qb and deserves to be talked about. I'm not the only one spending time talking about it. Former qbs on sports radio also been saying similar stuff after games. This is a thread on the Bengals, and with him being the qb. Who is going to be a main talking point like it or not.
    You don't like Dalton and think he should be replaced. Everyone knows that. There is no reason to reiterate that same point 25 times every single Bengals thread.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKMustangFan View Post
    You don't like Dalton and think he should be replaced. Everyone knows that. There is no reason to reiterate that same point 25 times every single Bengals thread.
    Nailed it..

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by footmaster View Post
    Just one example... Alex Smith with Andy Reid... whole different level QB... I think a guy like Reid would make a world of difference...
    Alex Smith was playing good for the 49ers before he went to the chiefs. Dalton has been blessed with more talent around him than most qbs have in their first 7 years.

    I think if Dalton had gotten drafted by someone else peoples opinions of him would be a lot different. We have now seen him play poor with a weak line. We have seen him play poor with a good line but weak wr core. We have seen him play poor with no running game. All those things is what a lot of qbs deal with and get labeled as bad qbs. Peoples opinions of Dalton would be very different if he hadn't been fortunate enough to have a top 10 defense most of his career. A top 5 wr every year to throw to. Before last year a good line too.

    At the end of the day he had 2 years that were very good where you say ok that's our qb. In 2013 and 2015 he had all that around him good line, backs, wrs. Every other year he would not have been looked at as yes we want that guy as our qb.

    Basically if he went anywhere else to start his career I think he is looked at as a little better version of Case Keenum. Which Case Keenum is showing he can win games similar to how Dalton won a lot of games. When you have a good defense and solid guys to pass too. It doesn't mean Minnesota should think Keenum is the answer though. Dalton has had most of his career what Keenum has now. Just shows how situations can change opinions of guys. Dalton imo is a guy who has benefited a lot from what's been around him most of his career.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecoach View Post
    Alex Smith was playing good for the 49ers before he went to the chiefs. Dalton has been blessed with more talent around him than most qbs have in their first 7 years.

    I think if Dalton had gotten drafted by someone else peoples opinions of him would be a lot different. We have now seen him play poor with a weak line. We have seen him play poor with a good line but weak wr core. We have seen him play poor with no running game. All those things is what a lot of qbs deal with and get labeled as bad qbs. Peoples opinions of Dalton would be very different if he hadn't been fortunate enough to have a top 10 defense most of his career. A top 5 wr every year to throw to. Before last year a good line too.

    At the end of the day he had 2 years that were very good where you say ok that's our qb. In 2013 and 2015 he had all that around him good line, backs, wrs. Every other year he would not have been looked at as yes we want that guy as our qb.

    Basically if he went anywhere else to start his career I think he is looked at as a little better version of Case Keenum. Which Case Keenum is showing he can win games similar to how Dalton won a lot of games. When you have a good defense and solid guys to pass too. It doesn't mean Minnesota should think Keenum is the answer though. Dalton has had most of his career what Keenum has now. Just shows how situations can change opinions of guys. Dalton imo is a guy who has benefited a lot from what's been around him most of his career.
    Dalton will go down as a top 3 and possibly the top QB in Bengals history... in terms of winning percentage, completion %, yards, TD’s, etc...
    You can’t name 15 current NFL QB’s that everyone, including NFL GM’s, would agree are better than Dalton... that said, u don’t throw away a top 15-20 NFL QB because you’re just interested to see what a back up or rookie can do... it’s just plain silly imo.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by footmaster View Post
    Dalton will go down as a top 3 and possibly the top QB in Bengals history... in terms of winning percentage, completion %, yards, TD’s, etc...
    You can’t name 15 current NFL QB’s that everyone, including NFL GM’s, would agree are better than Dalton... that said, u don’t throw away a top 15-20 NFL QB because you’re just interested to see what a back up or rookie can do... it’s just plain silly imo.
    So I assume you think the Bengals should keep Marvin? That they were right to keep him this long. His career record is still above 500. So he is a slightly above average coach. So realistically he would be in the top 15 to 20 coaches. So I guess it would be stupid to get rid of him for a coach who will be unknown how he would do?

    Marvin and Dalton are one in the same imo. Both slightly above average coach and player. Can win games but their demeanors and even decision making in big moments leave a lot to be desired.

    I think everyone agrees we kept Marvin longer than we should have correct? I think most agree Bengals are always typically a year behind people when they decide to make changes to anything. They are usually more reactive rather than proactive. At worst Marvin should have been gone after the 2015 debacle but we kept him while a third good coordinator left. So rather to wait and say let's give Dalton a few more years and a new coach to see, and then if he fails say shucks we were wrong. I rather be proactive and take a chance and move on from him because 7 years is a pretty good book to know what Dalton is. Is there a chance moving on from him could be bad? Yes. Is there a chance moving on from him could be good? Yes. Both of those choices I am willing to live with rather than do what we did with Marvin and keeping Dalton a few years longer than we should have.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecoach View Post
    So I assume you think the Bengals should keep Marvin? That they were right to keep him this long. His career record is still above 500. So he is a slightly above average coach. So realistically he would be in the top 15 to 20 coaches. So I guess it would be stupid to get rid of him for a coach who will be unknown how he would do?

    Marvin and Dalton are one in the same imo. Both slightly above average coach and player. Can win games but their demeanors and even decision making in big moments leave a lot to be desired.

    I think everyone agrees we kept Marvin longer than we should have correct? I think most agree Bengals are always typically a year behind people when they decide to make changes to anything. They are usually more reactive rather than proactive. At worst Marvin should have been gone after the 2015 debacle but we kept him while a third good coordinator left. So rather to wait and say let's give Dalton a few more years and a new coach to see, and then if he fails say shucks we were wrong. I rather be proactive and take a chance and move on from him because 7 years is a pretty good book to know what Dalton is. Is there a chance moving on from him could be bad? Yes. Is there a chance moving on from him could be good? Yes. Both of those choices I am willing to live with rather than do what we did with Marvin and keeping Dalton a few years longer than we should have.
    No, I’ve said a hundred times... move on from Marvin... but I wouldn’t move on from a good QB who just turned 30. And lucky for myself and those who agree with me, the franchise also seems to agree... I think, if by some miracle, Marvin is fired... Dalton will stay. And I believe Dalton has earned the chance to see how he would do under a new coaching staff... jmo.

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by footmaster View Post
    No, I’ve said a hundred times... move on from Marvin... but I wouldn’t move on from a good QB who just turned 30. And lucky for myself and those who agree with me, the franchise also seems to agree... I think, if by some miracle, Marvin is fired... Dalton will stay. And I believe Dalton has earned the chance to see how he would do under a new coaching staff... jmo.
    What do you define as a good qb? Going by his stats you can only say he had 2 good years. All other years it could be considered slightly better than average at best if we go by stats. Looking how this year is going only 2 years out of 7 could be defined as good years where people would say yeah I would take that every year from my qb.

  14. #89
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    @CincySportsFan, you nailed it. Nothing AD does will ever be enough. I can pretty much predict fc's post in every recap thread.

    Bengals Win
    At best, one brief comment on the win followed by a novel about how Dalton sucks.

    Bengals Loss
    A whole book series about how Dalton sucks.

    We all get it. It's tiresome and old. It's why I now try to stay away from Bengals threads. It's the same thing from the same person every single week without fail.

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by nkuclubbaseball19 View Post
    @CincySportsFan, you nailed it. Nothing AD does will ever be enough. I can pretty much predict fc's post in every recap thread.

    Bengals Win
    At best, one brief comment on the win followed by a novel about how Dalton sucks.

    Bengals Loss
    A whole book series about how Dalton sucks.

    We all get it. It's tiresome and old. It's why I now try to stay away from Bengals threads. It's the same thing from the same person every single week without fail.
    Block me and then move on.

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