Will Lebron James go down as one of the top 10 players in the NBA all time?

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    HT721's Avatar
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    Will Lebron James go down as one of the top 10 players in the NBA all time?

    I'm starting to believe he won't. He plays so selfish. His lack of production in the clutch is mostly because of selfish play too. But right now just in active players I would rank Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and possible Durant ahead of him all time. That isn't even mentioning all the greats of the past like Jordan, Olajuwon, Erving, Shaq, Bird, Johnson, Kareem, and David Robinson. Lebron just doesn't make his team better in my opinion.
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    Voice of Reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    I'm starting to believe he won't. He plays so selfish. His lack of production in the clutch is mostly because of selfish play too. But right now just in active players I would rank Kobe, Dirk, Wade, and possible Durant ahead of him all time. That isn't even mentioning all the greats of the past like Jordan, Olajuwon, Erving, Shaq, Bird, Johnson, Kareem, and David Robinson. Lebron just doesn't make his team better in my opinion.
    I totally disagree with the selfish part of your post. Actually, I think LeBron's downfall in this series is not being more selfish. He needs to take the ball and say I will not be denied. He needs to attack more and stop settling for jump shots. He is one of the most incredible athletes in NBA history and he isn't using that combination of size, strength and speed that makes him so good. He had 10 assists tonight so you can't say he is selfish.

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    I would call Lebron James a lot of things and selfish wouldn't be anywhere on the list. In fact I think he needs to be more selfish. Embrace that roll on the court that I am the man and I am going to will my team to victory not matter what it takes. It 5 NBA Finals 4th quarters he hasn't even scores over 10 TOTAL points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerTime View Post
    I would call Lebron James a lot of things and selfish wouldn't be anywhere on the list. In fact I think he needs to be more selfish. Embrace that roll on the court that I am the man and I am going to will my team to victory not matter what it takes. It 5 NBA Finals 4th quarters he hasn't even scores over 10 TOTAL points.
    He's not scoring over 10 points due to his lack of shots, it's because he won't pass and won't attack the basket. His selfish play is killing the team. I define selfish in a lot of ways, settling for jump shots when you could work to get a good shot or pass the ball off is selfish.

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    He only took 3 shots in the 4th tonight. If you wanna say he is selfish for not trying to drive and take over the basket than so be it. I think he is just scared honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerTime View Post
    He only took 3 shots in the 4th tonight. If you wanna say he is selfish for not trying to drive and take over the basket than so be it. I think he is just scared honestly.
    Could be nerves, but still he can't be one of the greatest of all time if he is that rattled in this situation. Most of the names I mentioned were complete ice water when it came to finals performances. Not many people who saw Jordan's shot over Utah in the finals will ever forget where they were when it happened.

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    Is LeBron the poster child of today's basketball player? The vast majority of today's players have no mid range game. They either shoot the three or take it to the rim. Pull up jumpers aren't part of the arsenal for the vast majority. And that is how I see LeBron's game. If he developed that 12-15 foot fade away like what Dirk shoots or a pull up jumper like Wade shoots, his game would take him over the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    Is LeBron the poster child of today's basketball player? The vast majority of today's players have no mid range game. They either shoot the three or take it to the rim. Pull up jumpers aren't part of the arsenal for the vast majority. And that is how I see LeBron's game. If he developed that 12-15 foot fade away like what Dirk shoots or a pull up jumper like Wade shoots, his game would take him over the top.
    He needs to develop a post game. About 3 minutes to go he got it in isolation vs Kidd took one step back and missed a jumper. He could score at will in the post vs a guy like Kidd.

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    He needs to produce in the big games and win a few rings before he goes down as one of the top 10.

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    This series will only define LeBron if:
    1. He never gets back to the Finals
    2. It starts a career's worth of underachieving performances deep in the playoffs.

    If this is LeBron finding out how to win a Championship and the guy we saw earlier in the playoffs becomes the long-term LeBron in future years his legacy will be much different. The finish to a career is much more important than the beginning. Look at how this playoff run will change the perception of Dirk Nowitzki all-time. KG's success in Boston did the same, he was suppose to be a guy that couldn't lead his team to success when it mattered most. TMac looked like a sure fire Hall of Famer and was putting himself in the conversation amongst the best scorers of all-time, but he is now remembered as a guy that never won anything. Heck even Jordan was suppose to be a guy that couldn't win the big one, having not won a single post-season series until '89 when he hit "The Shot" against Cleveland.

    Win or lose this series the book on LeBron James is not finished. 5 years from now we may be asking ourselves why anyone ever doubted him or we could ask why anyone ever put him in the conversation with the all-time greats. It is too early to look at him as a finished product.

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    ^ Agreed and he is going to win a title at some point IMO. He is too good not to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerTime View Post
    ^ Agreed and he is going to win a title at some point IMO. He is too good not to.
    And his legacy will be set going forward. For all of the talk about who really runs the team, I think it is important to note that LeBron is younger and considerably healthier than Wade for his career. Right or wrong, as Wade begins to decline the focus and praise will really begin to shift almost completely to LeBron as long as the Heat continue to win. The best example of this is the 80s Lakers with Kareem and Magic. They were two great players, Magic was clutch from the beginning but in truth KAJ was the leader of the early 80s Lakers. He got old and now Showtime is remembered as Magic's team because he maintained his star deeper into the decade and into our recent memories. 15 years from now it could be possible that LeBron will get more credit than he deserves and Wade will not fully get the credit he deserves because of this kind of bias. It is just the facts of life. It doesn't seem like that could be possible now, but if they win 4 or 5 titles over the following years keep what I have said in mind.

    Recent memory is huge in overall perception. In reality is Dirk really anywhere close to as good as Bird was? Probably not, but because we are seeing Dirk now and because he will be the more recent player he will always have a more favorable comparison to Larry Legend. No one will probably rank Dirk higher, but I think they seem more comparable because Dirk is so recent.

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    I think he passed way to much. He made some great passes, but there were a lot of times when he should have driven. He needs to take a game over and set the tone for his team moreso than he needs to be filtering the ball to other guys.

    He had a triple-double tonight, but his box score belies how poorly he played, especially in the fourth. He just doesn't seem to have that clutch instinct. He looks tentative out there, like he's waiting for Wade to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HT721 View Post
    Could be nerves, but still he can't be one of the greatest of all time if he is that rattled in this situation. Most of the names I mentioned were complete ice water when it came to finals performances. Not many people who saw Jordan's shot over Utah in the finals will ever forget where they were when it happened.
    Very true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    Is LeBron the poster child of today's basketball player? The vast majority of today's players have no mid range game. They either shoot the three or take it to the rim. Pull up jumpers aren't part of the arsenal for the vast majority. And that is how I see LeBron's game. If he developed that 12-15 foot fade away like what Dirk shoots or a pull up jumper like Wade shoots, his game would take him over the top.
    If James gets to that point, I would definitely agree.

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