Walk Off On An Infield Fly Rule Play

Page 2 of Originally Posted by BlueTip Plate ump made an immediate call on infield fly and just jumped the gun. It was a jam shot over the third baseman, not rea... 35 comments | 1122 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #16

    Join Date
    Jan 09
    Location
    It's not where I live, It's what I live for
    Posts
    16,371

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    1. Not required but..
    2. Third base umpire called it.
    Pretty sure the umpire has to declare the infield fly rule.
    Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info
    Advertisement

  2. #17

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by TAC View Post
    Pretty sure the umpire has to declare the infield fly rule.
    Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info

    I assume you mean because of the "shall" language.

    There is the rulebook and then there is a case book that umpires refer to. The case book handles "what if" situations among other things. Case book says that the infield fly is assumed.

  3. #18
    BlueTip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 11
    Posts
    1,166

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    I am saying that the rulebook does not allow a team to say "hey, you didn't call the infield fly" if they end up in a situation they didn't like. Rulebook says the rule is "assumed." Where that becomes a problem is if the fly ball goes to the outfield and it's a judgement call regarding "ordinary effort."
    The only time I've been ejected as a coach was over an incorrect infield fly ruling. If the guy just owned it I would have let it go. But....

  4. #19

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTip View Post
    The only time I've been ejected as a coach was over an incorrect infield fly ruling. If the guy just owned it I would have let it go. But....
    What happened ?

  5. #20
    BlueTip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 11
    Posts
    1,166

    Plate ump made an immediate call on infield fly and just jumped the gun. It was a jam shot over the third baseman, not really a fly ball and not really a line drive, if you know what I mean. Wasn't in the air very long and landed 30-40 feet in the grass down the LF line.

    2-man - It's the field ump's call all the way cause he's in B or C and has the angle on any ball in the air like that. Plate ump probably reminded himself right before the play that infield fly could be in effect. Jumped the gun.

    We were already down 5-0, lol, so we needed the rally. We had bases loaded no outs at the time. I'm coaching third and can see right away it's not a legit fly ball so I'm sending the runner at third. No defensive player was within 20 feet of it when it landed.

    We actually got a run out of the play but got another kid doubled up for 2 outs.

    About mid-way through the play I realize the PU is calling infield fly. I go off on him which he deserved. He doesn't know what to say when i start asking about ordinary effort, etc.

    Then I start in on the field ump. "If it was a legit infield fly why didn't you call it?" He had no answer. So they get together and confer. Field ump comes to me and says he thought there were two outs that's why he didn't signal infield fly.

    Total BS of course. He knew there were no outs. So instead of owning the mistake, they try to cover it up. That's when I let them have it and got tossed.

    I was later informed by Chris Rolf that the umps admitted the call was wrong but didn't know how to correct it. So they BS'd me rather than just owning it.

  6. #21

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTip View Post
    Plate ump made an immediate call on infield fly and just jumped the gun. It was a jam shot over the third baseman, not really a fly ball and not really a line drive, if you know what I mean. Wasn't in the air very long and landed 30-40 feet in the grass down the LF line.

    2-man - It's the field ump's call all the way cause he's in B or C and has the angle on any ball in the air like that. Plate ump probably reminded himself right before the play that infield fly could be in effect. Jumped the gun.

    We were already down 5-0, lol, so we needed the rally. We had bases loaded no outs at the time. I'm coaching third and can see right away it's not a legit fly ball so I'm sending the runner at third. No defensive player was within 20 feet of it when it landed.

    We actually got a run out of the play but got another kid doubled up for 2 outs.

    About mid-way through the play I realize the PU is calling infield fly. I go off on him which he deserved. He doesn't know what to say when i start asking about ordinary effort, etc.

    Then I start in on the field ump. "If it was a legit infield fly why didn't you call it?" He had no answer. So they get together and confer. Field ump comes to me and says he thought there were two outs that's why he didn't signal infield fly.

    Total BS of course. He knew there were no outs. So instead of owning the mistake, they try to cover it up. That's when I let them have it and got tossed.

    I was later informed by Chris Rolf that the umps admitted the call was wrong but didn't know how to correct it. So they BS'd me rather than just owning it.
    A few things:

    1. I am very slow on my call. I'm so slow some coaches think I don't realize that I am going to call it and start yelling "infield fly." I'd rather be slow than too quick for the reasons you stated.
    2. Any umpire can make the call. However, it is NOT the policy that it is the field ump's call. Most of the time the home plate umpire will make the call and the field up will then signal the same thing.
    3. I am going to have to think as well as do some research on what remedies there are if it is called incorrectly. Not sure there is a good resolution.
    4. Sometimes you just have to say "Coach, I kicked it." I've done it.

  7. #22

    Join Date
    Jan 09
    Location
    It's not where I live, It's what I live for
    Posts
    16,371

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    I assume you mean because of the "shall" language.

    There is the rulebook and then there is a case book that umpires refer to. The case book handles "what if" situations among other things. Case book says that the infield fly is assumed.
    So shouldn't the rule go by the rule book, not the case book?

  8. #23

    Join Date
    Jan 09
    Location
    It's not where I live, It's what I live for
    Posts
    16,371

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post

    1. I am very slow on my call. I'm so slow some coaches think I don't realize that I am going to call it and start yelling "infield fly." I'd rather be slow than too quick for the reasons you stated.
    .
    You must have umped my softball games. I would always ask for the call.

  9. #24
    BlueTip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 11
    Posts
    1,166

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    A few things:

    1. I am very slow on my call. I'm so slow some coaches think I don't realize that I am going to call it and start yelling "infield fly." I'd rather be slow than too quick for the reasons you stated.
    2. Any umpire can make the call. However, it is NOT the policy that it is the field ump's call. Most of the time the home plate umpire will make the call and the field up will then signal the same thing.
    3. I am going to have to think as well as do some research on what remedies there are if it is called incorrectly. Not sure there is a good resolution.
    4. Sometimes you just have to say "Coach, I kicked it." I've done it.
    My general policy regarding umpiring is if the guy or guys are hustling I'm not gonna get upset unless it's just an misunderstanding of a rule and how to apply it. If it's a bang/bang play and they guy's getting there trying to get an angle, even if I disagree I don't say anything.

    Especially in the old days when I'm coaching the young guys and it's one-man. As long as he's hustling he won't hear much from me except maybe quietly after an inning. I'm not trying to embarrass him. The only issue I have in one-man generally is tags at the bases. Again, if the guy hustles I'm fine. I had a guy a few years ago that just stood behind the plate and didn't move on steals or balls in play. We had a kid steal 2B and the ball is laying on the ground under the runner but PU can't see it, rings him up. You gotta ask the player to show you the ball in his possession before you make that call.

    That's less of an issue in two-man. I know you said any ump can call infield fly and that's technically true but when the ball isn't skied in the middle of the infield, the ball is well into the outfield, the FU is usually in the best position to make that call. In my case the PU called it right off the bat without waiting a moment or two as you suggest.

    And your willingness to admit you're wrong is one the best thing you can do IMO. Some guys still won't let it go but you're not pleasing them no matter what you do. You can only try and hope the guy is reasonable.

    It's funny over the years I've always had the same attitude as you, though while I was coaching. I've corrected rule applications that were incorrect but helped my team. Typically the other coach asks hey can you help me here. And I've always been honest even if it hurt my team. Figured it was better karma in the long run.

    I've had multiple times that happening on infield fly (fair/foul) and batter swinging while HBP and runners advancing.

  10. #25

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by TAC View Post
    So shouldn't the rule go by the rule book, not the case book?
    No. As I stated the casebook fills in the blanks and the "what ifs."

    What if you fail to yell "infield fly batter's out if fair" when you should have? Casebook answers that.

  11. #26

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    So I did some research on options when you know you've kicked this rule.

    IF (KEY) the runners ran and advanced safely THEN you can consider placing the batter that you originally called out at first base.

    However, the most likely scenario is the runners who hear you call it stayed at their bases. If so, you just have to go with the original call and admit you kicked it. No reasonable solution here.

  12. #27

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTip View Post

    Especially in the old days when I'm coaching the young guys and it's one-man. As long as he's hustling he won't hear much from me except maybe quietly after an inning. I'm not trying to embarrass him. The only issue I have in one-man generally is tags at the bases. Again, if the guy hustles I'm fine. I had a guy a few years ago that just stood behind the plate and didn't move on steals or balls in play. We had a kid steal 2B and the ball is laying on the ground under the runner but PU can't see it, rings him up. You gotta ask the player to show you the ball in his possession before you make that call.

    That's less of an issue in two-man. I know you said any ump can call infield fly and that's technically true but when the ball isn't skied in the middle of the infield, the ball is well into the outfield, the FU is usually in the best position to make that call. In my case the PU called it right off the bat without waiting a moment or two as you suggest.



    And your willingness to admit you're wrong is one the best thing you can do IMO. Some guys still won't let it go but you're not pleasing them no matter what you do. You can only try and hope the guy is reasonable.

    .
    I had two high school games last night. One was JV. One was varsity. One-man in the JV. Play at first where the pitcher covered and stepped on first. I called him out . Good young coach of the defense was NOT happy and told me I was 100% wrong and that he CLEARLY juggled the ball as he was stepping on the base. He could be 100% correct. No idea. All I could say to him was that from my angle I did not see any juggling. Didn't make him any happier but sometimes you are limited when you're in a one-man situation.

    Really tough on the swipe tag at 2nd on a steal. You can only get out so far from behind the plate before the ball is there. I had a game at St Henry where I called the runner out. First base coach respectfully disagreed. He had a MUCH better angle than me but he got it. Tough angle.

    The key that I've found from doing basketball previously and now baseball is just communicating properly and respectfully to the coach.

  13. #28
    BlueTip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 11
    Posts
    1,166

    I can tell you're a good ump in your description of the play. There are certain things you can't possibly get an angle on when you're in one-man. Reasonable coaches will understand that. A-holes will not.

    I know we've had this discussion before but my biggest pet peave is routine plays at first base. You really have to have your eyes on the base and listen for the catch. That's hard to do when you're running out from behind the plate but try to get out quickly and get yourself in a spot where you can slow down a step and really try to see the bag and listen.

    I saw 3 missed calls at 1B last weekend in college games so it happens at all levels. It's easy to tell when umps are guessing at 1B.

    As long as you keep hustling that's 95% of it as far as I'm concerned.

  14. #29

    Join Date
    Jan 09
    Location
    It's not where I live, It's what I live for
    Posts
    16,371

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    No. As I stated the casebook fills in the blanks and the "what ifs."

    What if you fail to yell "infield fly batter's out if fair" when you should have? Casebook answers that.
    So the umpire is required to indicate it is an infield fly rule if he deems it to be the situation? I guess that is why I always gave them a friendly reminder. You said earlier it was it was not required. Casebook helps if there is confusion or a screw up?

  15. #30

    Join Date
    May 08
    Posts
    91,223

    Quote Originally Posted by TAC View Post
    So the umpire is required to indicate it is an infield fly rule if he deems it to be the situation? I guess that is why I always gave them a friendly reminder. You said earlier it was it was not required. Casebook helps if there is confusion or a screw up?
    Umpire SHOULD call it. That is the ideal case. Casebook tells us it is still the rule if we forget to verbalize it.

Top