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  1. #121
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Was talking boys, as the discussion had drifted somewhat to the overall All "A"!
    Aren't we on the girls forum??
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  2. #122
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Was talking boys, as the discussion had drifted somewhat to the overall All "A"!
    Okay boys. 2009 Calvary won the region and lost in the first round. Other than that, it's been dominated by Brossart. I'm sure you've heard the "blind squirrel" saying , right?

  3. #123
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Great research! So your point is there are a handful of good programs that dominate most regions, and some are in the smaller 40+% of the schools playing hoops in the state?? News flash--A small percentage of programs win their region the vast majority of the time (in virtually all sports)--Some are consistent winners and they're not all large schools??
    Bingo! So if we agree that it's very difficult to win the region, and the A has been dominated by teams that compete in the regular region, why did we create a segmented state tournament that has dominate teams that consistently knock out the teams that the tournament was supposedly created for??
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  4. #124
    Premium Member StickerMann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    Okay boys. 2009 Calvary won the region and lost in the first round. Other than that, it's been dominated by Brossart. I'm sure you've heard the "blind squirrel" saying , right?
    Mustangs have been dominant in the 10th "A" the last 10+ years (boys) and have done well in the girls' division--Look back at the previous 20 years and you'll see the 9th & 10th were not as single school dominated (both boys & girls). Maybe some of the other schools should up their schedules and challenge themselves more as BB did in the late 90's? Took some losses early, but it's helped in the long run.

  5. #125
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Great research! So your point is there are a handful of good programs that dominate most regions, and some are in the smaller 40+% of the schools playing hoops in the state?? News flash--A small percentage of programs win their region the vast majority of the time (in virtually all sports)--Some are consistent winners and they're not all large schools??
    This was in response to madman who said I was smoking something because only a handful of the 16 could compete just as good as other teams in their own region. My point, there are MANY that will compete just fine in their region and some may even may be favored to win it!

  6. #126
    Premium Member StickerMann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    Bingo! So if we agree that it's very difficult to win the region, and the A has been dominated by teams that compete in the regular region, why did we create a segmented state tournament that has dominate teams that consistently knock out the teams that the tournament was supposedly created for??
    All "A" tourney qualifications have stayed essentially the same for 25+ years, since it grew from a local to statewide event. Its been contested by about 120-130 schools for the last 20 years if I'm not mistaken? Still think it's a pretty good achievement vs. winning a football championship from a field of 30+, many of which have 0 chance as well??

  7. #127
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    All "A" tourney qualifications have stayed essentially the same for 25+ years, since it grew from a local to statewide event. Its been contested by about 120-130 schools for the last 20 years if I'm not mistaken? Still think it's a pretty good achievement vs. winning a football championship from a field of 30+, many of which have 0 chance as well??
    What in the world does football have to do with anything. And I think I showed you that it's not 150 teams you are competing against. 100 don't have a chance.

  8. #128
    Premium Member Lawnboy13's Avatar
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    Now that I'm finally back home and have access to a computer and keyboard all I have to say is..............Crap I forgot, I got to go to bed been a long day!
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  9. #129
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Mustangs have been dominant in the 10th "A" the last 10+ years (boys) and have done well in the girls' division--Look back at the previous 20 years and you'll see the 9th & 10th were not as single school dominated (both boys & girls). Maybe some of the other schools should up their schedules and challenge themselves more as BB did in the late 90's? Took some losses early, but it's helped in the long run.
    In the 9th, 3 teams have have won the last 20-22 in the boys. In girls, 16 out of the last 22 were won by 2 different teams.

    In the 10th, Brossart has completely dominated the last 11 years. Before that it was a little more spread out. The girls 10th has been dominated by 2 teams over the last 20.

  10. #130
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StickerMann View Post
    Mustangs have been dominant in the 10th "A" the last 10+ years (boys) and have done well in the girls' division--Look back at the previous 20 years and you'll see the 9th & 10th were not as single school dominated (both boys & girls). Maybe some of the other schools should up their schedules and challenge themselves more as BB did in the late 90's? Took some losses early, but it's helped in the long run.
    If they should step up and challenge themselves,then why does Brossart need to play in the all A? You're kinda proving my point for me. Don't create a separates tournament just to allow teams to compete. Step up and compete in your region. Now for those other 100 teams that get dominated even in the all a, maybe they need their own tournament. But don't tell me this is a great tournament that provides a great opportunity for all the small schools when the region and state is dominated by a third of the teams.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCC9 View Post
    Okay. Here you go

    I assume you know that Brossart, NCC and Gallatin will all compete and have a good chance to win their region. That's a handful already when you are only talking about 16 teams.

    Those are the easy ones, so lets move on.
    Webster co. 17-2. Probably the favorite to win their region.
    Monroe co. 16-3. 10-2 in their very strong region.
    Murray 18-4 one of the favorites to win their region
    Qwensboro catholic 13-5 10-0 in their strong region prob have one of the best players in the state.
    Frankfort 13-4 5-2 in a very strong region. Maybe still the 3rd best team in their region.
    Leslie co 19-6 10-2 in their region.
    Danville 11-7 7-4 in a very strong region. Still 3rd or 4th best team in their region.
    Magoffin co. 10-8 7-1 in their region.
    Green co 13-7. 9-3 in their region.
    Pineville. 14-8 10-6 in their region.
    Holy cross. 12-10. 4-2 in a very strong region.
    Louisville collegiate. 8-6 3-1 in their region.
    West carter 8-11. 7-7 in their region.

    Wow! Those teams look pretty good to me. In fact I'd venture to say only a handful WON'T be in the mix for their region. All of them have very good records inside their region except 1 and they are 7-7. Still think only a handful of the 16 have a chance. Only a handful in any region ever have a chance no matter how big your school is. Looks like whatever I'm smoking makes me pretty smart!
    Nice research and thanks for the information but other than BB, NCC, GCHS, Monroe, Murray and Owensboro Cath, none of the others have a realistic chance of winning their region. So yes, that is a handful.

  12. #132
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    Nice research and thanks for the information but other than BB, NCC, GCHS, Monroe, Murray and Owensboro Cath, none of the others have a realistic chance of winning their region. So yes, that is a handful.
    That's 6 of 16 more than a third of the tournament! And those are the ones that have a legit shot. There are several others that will compete just as well as most of the larger schools and will end up in the top qtr of their region.

    Maybe I made a mistake by saying "chance to win" and should have said a chance to be very competitive in their region. Of course if you're in a region that has a dominant team this year, it decreases your chance to actually win the region. But I think our point is here that there are Several teams that are in the 16 that are very competitive in the real region so why play in a segmented region and state tournament? There are all kinds of other schools that don't get to play in the all A and have no chance of winning their region or even being competitive.

  13. #133
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    Nice research and thanks for the information but other than BB, NCC, GCHS, Monroe, Murray and Owensboro Cath, none of the others have a realistic chance of winning their region. So yes, that is a handful.
    And you didn't include Webster and they were ranked 24th in the state by one poll.

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    Well I seen Webster play and if there ranked 24th Im shocked! Its like RCC9 you think its a advantage for other teams to play in the ALL A. Please tell me what the difference is playing in the All A and playing in some big tourny's during a season? In the All A you dont pick who you play but as a coach if you wanted to play in particular tournaments so you could see several teams and play some of them before districts or regionals isnt that a bit of a advantage? Like I said, If you havent been part of it you just wouldnt understand and you can go on ALLLLLLLLL day questioning and doing your research and its not gonna change.

  15. #135
    Premium Member Porky's Avatar
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    Bottom line is the All A is a great tournament that the schools and all the kids all look forward to playing in every year. The All A regionals are very exciting, as is the All A State. If you don't believe that then you need to get out and watch some of these games.
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    RCC9 - The research that should have been done is below. It is very revealing and is very relevant to this discussion and to what you are trying to present. Each region has the regional winners listed for 2012 (last season). The first is the ALL A regional winner, the second is the regular regional winner. As you can see, from the bolded lines, that last year presented ONLY TWO All A regional winners that were able to go on and win their end of season regional tournament. That is 2 out of 16 or better presented as 12.5%. That is a very low percentage statewide and not what I would consider a "handful." This list is actual results, no "could haves" or "opinions". As you can see, it is not common for a team to win both ALL A regional and the regular regional. You argument that the same teams have as good of chance to win the regular regional anyway is not very strong. If that was true, then there would be more than 12.5 percent STATEWIDE that are able to win both.
    I thought this was more revealing and that you would be happy to have your tough question answered...or maybe your real motivation is more than just asking tough questions.

    Region 1 Murray / Marshall County
    Region 2 University Heights / Hopkinsville
    Region 3 Owensboro Catholic / Muhlenberg County
    Region 4 Monroe County / Gascow
    Region 5 Green County / Marion County
    Region 6 Louisville Holy Cross / Butler
    Region 7 Kentucky County Day / DuPont Manual
    Region 8 Walton Verona / Walton Verona
    Region 9 Newport Central Catholic / Boone County
    Region 10 Bishop Brossart / Montgomery County
    Region 11 Lexington Christian / Paul Laurence Dunbar
    Region 12 Somerset / Lincoln County
    Region 13 Harlan / Clay Co
    Region 14 Owsley County / Perry County Central
    Region 15 Magoffin County / Magoffin County
    Region 16 Raceland / Ashland Blazer

  17. #137
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NKY SPORTS FAN View Post
    Well I seen Webster play and if there ranked 24th Im shocked! Its like RCC9 you think its a advantage for other teams to play in the ALL A. Please tell me what the difference is playing in the All A and playing in some big tourny's during a season? In the All A you dont pick who you play but as a coach if you wanted to play in particular tournaments so you could see several teams and play some of them before districts or regionals isnt that a bit of a advantage? Like I said, If you havent been part of it you just wouldnt understand and you can go on ALLLLLLLLL day questioning and doing your research and its not gonna change.
    I'm not saying its not a great and competitive tournament and that the girls love playing in it. I'm sure for the minority of the teams that dominate this tournament, it's something that their kids look forward to every year. All of that is great. I'm sure as a fan that its a very entertaining event to be a part of. I'm not denying any of that and it's all wonderful!

    All I'm saying that when folks are questioned as to why this is a segmented tournament, everyone defends it by saying "oh, it's great because it gives the small schools a chance to experience things things such as regions and state events that they wouldn't otherwise get to do." I say that's a garbage excuse because the 2/3 of the teams that should be getting exposure still have been dominated by the other 1/3 of the teams for the last 20 years. And those teams that have dominated are very competitive inside their own regular regional tournaments. So to say it is segmented out to provide opportunities for the teams that can't compete, is not true at all. So I will ask you the original question again...what is this tournament for and why is it segmented? If the answer is because you eventually get to see the best small schools compete (which can compete against the big schools) then say that. They arent teams that dont get opportunities otherwise. And if its an opportunity to let one of those schools (who can compete) win a championship, then say that. But then lets move to classes in Ky because there are schools of every size (not just A) that would love to have the opportunity to compete for championships against only schools similar in size.

    Now I don't want that to happen, but this is exactly what has happened to this tournament.

    Okay I'm being sarcastic now....I have to go now. Duke energy just called. They are going to sponsor my new tournament for next year! So be on the lookout for the first annual Mid-size school KY State Invitational. It will be for 2a and 3a schools only. No private school need apply. We will also be sending out forms to discuss your teams previous years record to make sure that HHS...I mean... all teams have a fair chance and that its not dominated by a few. This will be a great event!

    Again, over exaggerating and being very sarcastic, but you get my point! This tournament would be segmented and for no other reason than just to have another tournament and hand out a trophy. This tournament would still be a great event in which teams, players and fans look forward to and love to attend and watch very competitive games and hang banners for (as someone said). Now if this tournament was real, what would everyone that is defending the A say about this one?

    As someone said...this is a compromise tournament. An exception if you will? The state wants no part of breaking Ky tradition and going to a class system. Therefore,they allow this tournament to happen and hope that others don't follow path. If they did, people would start to push for classes in bball and they would never let that happen. So for those saying start your own tournament, they'd never let it happen.
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  18. #138
    Premium Member RCC9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleSevens View Post
    RCC9 - The research that should have been done is below. It is very revealing and is very relevant to this discussion and to what you are trying to present. Each region has the regional winners listed for 2012 (last season). The first is the ALL A regional winner, the second is the regular regional winner. As you can see, from the bolded lines, that last year presented ONLY TWO All A regional winners that were able to go on and win their end of season regional tournament. That is 2 out of 16 or better presented as 12.5%. That is a very low percentage statewide and not what I would consider a "handful." This list is actual results, no "could haves" or "opinions". As you can see, it is not common for a team to win both ALL A regional and the regular regional. You argument that the same teams have as good of chance to win the regular regional anyway is not very strong. If that was true, then there would be more than 12.5 percent STATEWIDE that are able to win both.
    I thought this was more revealing and that you would be happy to have your tough question answered...or maybe your real motivation is more than just asking tough questions.

    Region 1 Murray / Marshall County
    Region 2 University Heights / Hopkinsville
    Region 3 Owensboro Catholic / Muhlenberg County
    Region 4 Monroe County / Gascow
    Region 5 Green County / Marion County
    Region 6 Louisville Holy Cross / Butler
    Region 7 Kentucky County Day / DuPont Manual
    Region 8 Walton Verona / Walton Verona
    Region 9 Newport Central Catholic / Boone County
    Region 10 Bishop Brossart / Montgomery County
    Region 11 Lexington Christian / Paul Laurence Dunbar
    Region 12 Somerset / Lincoln County
    Region 13 Harlan / Clay Co
    Region 14 Owsley County / Perry County Central
    Region 15 Magoffin County / Magoffin County
    Region 16 Raceland / Ashland Blazer
    I corrected myself and said I meant to say that they have just as good of a chance to be competitive in their region as many other schools that don't get to play in their own segmented tournament. When you lob them all into together, the chances of winning the region is very tough. You become 1 of many schools. I say the same ones that are winning the regions are just as competitive and fall in the top qtr of their region as all of the other teams in their region. They may not win their region, but neither do 12-13 other teams in that same region and most of them don't get a separate opportunity to compete elsewhere.

    For anyone to win a regional it's going to be tough. I bet if you looked harder you could find multiple non-A schools in each region that haven't won their region in the last 20 years. Heck, I bet you could find some that have never won a region! Those guys don't get an opportunity to play in a different championship event! They just deal with it. Why is A different?

    If the teams that are dominating the All A are still very competitive in their region, don't say it's for opportunities for the small school. Then that tells me you believe in a class system and all schools of every size have the same argument! You either believe in a class aystem or you don't. It shouldn't be for just certain classes.

    For the record, I like the bball the way it is. The best win and they are the undisputed champs! Tough luck to everyone else. It shouldn't be easy to win or have segmented tournaments if we truly believe in the KY way.
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  19. #139
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    RCC9 = hardheaded.

  20. #140
    Premium Member paNDA's Avatar
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    The All A is a marketing marvel. Whomever did it did it right because the emotions and feeling around this tournament are unsurpassed by any other tournament other than by the State Championship at the end of the season.