Should Success be a Factor in Classification?

Page 3 of Currently the state of Indiana uses what is called a Success Factor in determining their classes. Shown below is a portion of their rules regarding how... 51 comments | 3048 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #31

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    I do not believe that is correct for Indiana. You can actually move up until you reach the highest class. I don't know of a football team, but Providence volleyball is playing Class 4 due to their point accumulation the past 2 cycles, while all other sports at the school are class 2.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by macdon View Post
    The idea behind the Class system is to equalize numbers is it not?
    That is the idea, but as I have argued for a long time on BGP, the number of male students in a given school does not determine the success of the program. The number that matters is, the number of players on the team. If the number of enrollment of a given school was the determining factor, you would never see 1A schools beating 5A schools, and 2A schools beating 4A schools. Simply having more students does not mean success.

    Now, in the NFL, numbers are pure, because every team has the same number of players and the same number of players at each position (which schools don't have due to body type, size and ability).

  3. #33

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    What everyone seems to forget when wanting teams that are successful to move up a class.........How is that benefiting the teams in the class that they move into?

    Let's say we use a 8 year look-back period to determine "successful" teams for the next classification. Let say there are two 2A teams that have played in the finals in 6 of those 8 years and let's give them 3 State Titles each. So they are moved to 3A . Great for the remaining teams in 2A. Not so great for all the teams in 3A who now have two new very good programs that they will have to beat in the playoffs. Let's say those newly reclassified teams win 1 title each in the next 4 years. That means some 3A team would have been a State Champion in those years if things were left alone.

    Oh and all those 2A schools that were glad to see both of those schools be moved to 3A.....wait the KHSAA also moved a 1A super program to 2A who then eliminated four 2A schools on the way to making the Finals.

    So someone explain to those "old" 3A and 2A schools who were eliminated how it is so much better that schools are moved up.

  4. #34
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    My question that I still don't think has been answered is how quickly can teams forced up move back down if they have little or no success in the higher class?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    My question that I still don't think has been answered is how quickly can teams forced up move back down if they have little or no success in the higher class?
    I think it is a four-year alignment in Indiana, just like Kentucky. Team A plays four years in 1A and accumulates enough "success points" to move up to 2A, where they remain for four years. After those four years, Team A hasn't accumulated enough "success points" for a move, and would thus be returned to their appropriate class (perhaps 1A if they are still small, but they might remain in 2A if they have grown).

    If I were in charge, I'd make it so that no team ever played more than one class above their actual class. So even if, say a school like Mayfield, has a ton of success over four years in 2A and gets moved to 3A, and proceeds to win four consecutive state championships in 3A, they wouldn't move to 4A because that would be two classes larger than reality. They would remain in 3A.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voice of Reason View Post
    My question that I still don't think has been answered is how quickly can teams forced up move back down if they have little or no success in the higher class?
    If I'm reading this correctly, looks like Indiana determines class levels every reclassification period:

    TEAM SPORTS RECLASSIFICATION – TOURNAMENT SUCCESS FACTOR

    If a school which has participated in a higher enrollment class during the previous reclassification period achieves a tournament series success point value of Two (2) points or less in a specific sport, such school shall be placed in the classification immediately below the classification previously occupied for the next reclassification period.

  7. #37

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    Two year old article from the Indianapolis Star about the success factor:

    Link>>> Tournament success factor is working


    Fairness

    I remember three years ago, when the tournament success factor was originally installed, LCC coach Kevin O’Shea said it was up to other programs to “get better.” He’s right, to a point. Programs like Cathedral, Chatard and LCC have established tradition for a reason. But the annual tournament blowouts leading to the inevitable coronation at Lucas Oil Stadium had gotten stale. The two-day state finals attendance dropped to 27,371 in 2012 — all five games were decided by at least two scores — more than a 30 percent drop from 2010.

    The following year, after adding a sixth class and the success factor, attendance was 43,985 with three games decided by 8 points or less and another by 10. Last year it was 44,503.

    It’s not a perfect system, but I’ve yet to see one state that has found a system to satisfy everyone.

  8. #38

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    In Kentucky, the only large enrollment discrepency is in 6A. A success factor would do nothing for 6A. The rest of the classes are about a 100 boy difference between bottom to top. Of course allowing teams to play up or play down (allowing teams to play down because somebody played up is ridiculous) causes these differences to increase.

    Using old 4 year averages:
    1A lowest is 71 and highest is 188. 117 boy difference.
    2A lowest is 200 and highest is 315. 115 boy difference.
    3A lowest is 315.5 and highest is 420.8.105 boy difference
    4A losest is 421.8 and highest is 527.8. 106 boy difference
    5A lowest is 529 and highest is 698. 169 boy difference.
    6A lowest is 726 and highest is 1377. 651 Boy difference.

    The state of Kentucky would be better served by using Free and reduced lunch reverse multiplier to decide enrollment figures and then classify accordingly. If you want to look at numbers that matter, these are the numbers that directly correlate to participation in extra curricular activities. Minnesota does this and it would benefit many Kentucky schools.

    From the article below:
    Minnesota: A reverse multiplier is used to reduce enrollment in some schools. The formula is based on the number of students in a school activity program and the number registered for free or reduced lunch.
    Compilation of how all 5 states handle competitive balance - cleveland.com

    A success factor is not needed in Kentucky because moving up doesn't necessarily mean more difficult, unless you are taking a 5A team and making them play 6A or possibly a 1A team and making them play 2A.

  9. #39

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    I'm intrigued by the reverse multiplier for schools with a higher percentages of kids on free/reduced lunches.

    This web site provides a good look at Kentucky schools and the number of kids on free/reduced lunches.

    Kentucky Department of Education

    See the 2016-2017 Qualifying Data Link.

    In my part of the state here are the 2016-2017 stats for the Boone County district high schools:

    Site Name Total Enrollment Percent Free and Reduced
    Randall K Cooper High School........1,339 25.77%
    Boone County High School.............1,380 53.19%
    Larry A Ryle High School...............1,814 24.59%
    Conner High School......................1,415 29.75%

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by colonel-fan View Post
    I'm intrigued by the reverse multiplier for schools with a higher percentages of kids on free/reduced lunches.

    This web site provides a good look at Kentucky schools and the number of kids on free/reduced lunches.

    Kentucky Department of Education

    See the 2016-2017 Qualifying Data Link.

    In my part of the state here are the 2016-2017 stats for the Boone County district high schools:

    Site Name Total Enrollment Percent Free and Reduced
    Randall K Cooper High School........1,339 25.77%
    Boone County High School.............1,380 53.19%
    Larry A Ryle High School................1,814 24.59%
    Conner High School......................1,415 29.75%
    In a state as poor overall as KY you would see an explosion of the middle classes and a considerable shrinking of the largest classes.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by PepRock01 View Post
    In a state as poor overall as KY you would see an explosion of the middle classes and a considerable shrinking of the largest classes.
    Only if the KHSAA changed the current system. The bottom 32 and the top 32 would still be classified in 1A and 6A. It would just be using enrollment numbers considering the reverse multiplier.

  12. #42

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    You can find many different "answers" in every state. Indiana uses success as a measuring stick, Tennessee separates public and private divisions, Alabama uses a 1.5 multiplier for private school enrollment....In each of these states, it has not created a balance of power. There are tough questions to deal with in our state.

    If the goal is to save football at traditionally struggling programs, perhaps you use a CalPreps rating to create a formula that would move schools DOWN if they are historically weak. I'm not sold that a separate playoff for the 3's & 4's will be a big hit with the schools. The gap between the top programs and the middle of the pack has been widening. In my mind, it would be better to help those that are struggling rather than move up those that have been successful.

    If your goal is to make classes more competitive, cut the number schools in A & 6A and make the numbers in the other four classes much larger (Alabama).

    The private school dominance is real. How we deal with it in KY is almost impossible because you have too few schools to separate. Privates make up about 4% of football schools and since 2007 have accounted for 26% of all championships. They have dominated 6A (9 of 11 titles) and 2A (6 of 11 titles). There have been very few private schools in the other divisions, but in those divisions you have the following private school titles since we went to 6 classes: A- 1, 3A- 0, 4A- 1, 5A- 1.

    I am certain when the new alignment is announced, it will create opposition, no matter where we are headed. It is easy to identify that we have issues, much more difficult to find a solution.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear3 View Post
    You can find many different "answers" in every state. Indiana uses success as a measuring stick, Tennessee separates public and private divisions, Alabama uses a 1.5 multiplier for private school enrollment....In each of these states, it has not created a balance of power. There are tough questions to deal with in our state.

    If the goal is to save football at traditionally struggling programs, perhaps you use a CalPreps rating to create a formula that would move schools DOWN if they are historically weak. I'm not sold that a separate playoff for the 3's & 4's will be a big hit with the schools. The gap between the top programs and the middle of the pack has been widening. In my mind, it would be better to help those that are struggling rather than move up those that have been successful.

    If your goal is to make classes more competitive, cut the number schools in A & 6A and make the numbers in the other four classes much larger (Alabama).

    The private school dominance is real. How we deal with it in KY is almost impossible because you have too few schools to separate. Privates make up about 4% of football schools and since 2007 have accounted for 26% of all championships. They have dominated 6A (9 of 11 titles) and 2A (6 of 11 titles). There have been very few private schools in the other divisions, but in those divisions you have the following private school titles since we went to 6 classes: A- 1, 3A- 0, 4A- 1, 5A- 1.

    I am certain when the new alignment is announced, it will create opposition, no matter where we are headed. It is easy to identify that we have issues, much more difficult to find a solution.
    Great post. Just curious, what is the percentage of independent school districts playing football and what percentage of championships have they won since 2007?

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by gchs_uk9 View Post
    I think it is a four-year alignment in Indiana, just like Kentucky. Team A plays four years in 1A and accumulates enough "success points" to move up to 2A, where they remain for four years. After those four years, Team A hasn't accumulated enough "success points" for a move, and would thus be returned to their appropriate class (perhaps 1A if they are still small, but they might remain in 2A if they have grown).

    If I were in charge, I'd make it so that no team ever played more than one class above their actual class. So even if, say a school like Mayfield, has a ton of success over four years in 2A and gets moved to 3A, and proceeds to win four consecutive state championships in 3A, they wouldn't move to 4A because that would be two classes larger than reality. They would remain in 3A.
    So if Mayfield got moved to 3A and then won 4 straight titles in 3A how did the multiplier help the other teams in 3A in those 4 years? And if you want to leave them there for the next 4 years how is that helping the other teams in 3A for the next 4 years?

  15. #45

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    Should success be a factor?

    Should failure be a factor?

    That sword cuts both ways.

    In 4A Breckenridge County and Franklin-Simpson have identical four year male enrollments.

    Breckenridge County has one school as does Simpson County.
    Breckenridge County has about 2,000 more residents than Simpson County.

    Franklin Simpson historically has been a decent football school.
    Breckenridge County has historically been a not so good football school.

    Both school have a four year average of 432 males enrolled.

    Why is one school able to put a competitive team on the field and the other is not?

    Better athletes?
    Better facilities?
    Better coaching?
    More Administration support?
    More Community support?

    If FS, Johnson Central, Hoptown, Collins, etc are bumped up to 5A will that make Breckenridge County a better football team?

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