KHSAA Board Of Control Votes In New Football Playoff Format

Page 8 of Voting will be this afternoon. The proposed new format will do away with cross-bracketing. Instead, they would opt to have the first two rounds consist... 123 comments | 15908 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #106
    ATLCat's Avatar
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    I dont know who Daniel Hopkins is but I like him now.
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  2. #107
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    My biggest concern with any plan with seeding is not with seeding but with seeding that will have travel from West side of the state to East or just the opposite prior to the championship game. I posted this last year and I'll stick by my issue this year.

    Scenario: A team out West (and FS is not real far West by the way) is seed 3 or 4 in the semi-finals and has to travel to say Corbin or Johnson Central. So to make that 5 hour trip (or longer) a school has to decide to travel on Thanksgiving Day and find hotel rooms (and the money to pay for those rooms, meals) and kids are now on the road instead of with Family on Thanksgiving day. Then after arriving the school (coach) has to find something for the team to do to occupy their time on Friday (you gotta check out of those hotel rooms fairly early) until a couple of hours before the game (so your team is completely out of sorts compared to their normal routine) so the kids won't be resting mentally etc. So you go to play the game against a team that is well rested that was at home for Thanksgiving with family, friends and spent Friday watching film, resting, walking through, getting motivated by staff and whatever. Or we could choose to put our team on the bus to travel 5 hours or longer on game day. Again many of the same issues will still exist. Do you travel 5 hours or longer and arrive 2 hours before the game? The kids are spent from that bus ride. Emotionally they will struggle. There is no doubt about it. And don't forget they have been sitting crumpled up on that bus for all those hours. And I assume the two teams are fairly even or close enough to make a decent game. Please don't allow yourself to fall into the trap of thinking "I would just be glad to have my team in the semi-finals". Once you are there you want to win!! But with all this to overcome the traveling team is put at a huge disadvantage and therefore most likely ends their season that night.

    Now let's say this team somehow overcomes this scenario and wins the game on the road. So now I have to have my kids on a 5 hour (or longer) bus ride home that night (safety concerns etc for the long day for bus drivers etc.) or we come up with money for hotel rooms and meals for a second night. So let's say we get back home on Saturday afternoon or we drive half the night. This team now has to prepare (coaches and players) for the State Championship game. We (they) are mentally and physically drained at this point going into Sunday preparation and Monday practice. So we now get ready to go to Lexington for the championship. Now our school has to find more money for more team meals, rooms, busses, etc to make a 3 or 4 hour trip or longer (for a team way out West like Mayfield). All of this and let's say we are going to Lexington to play a team 2 hours or less from Lexington (or maybe they are in Lexington) that was very likely playing at home themselves on Thanksgiving weekend with all those advantages the home team I just described will have due to the cross bracket seeding of the semi-finals of East Vs West.

    So I am sure their are several other scenarios that could be worse than what I describe here or better. But for sure we have always played on our side of the state to represent that side of the state in the finals and to somewhat help with not having these scenarios like the one I have described. One of the questions I have discussed with football advisory committee members is are we doing what is good for football in Kentucky? I do believe these coaches are giving good advice to the KHSAA. I do think seeding of some sort is Ok. But I don't think seeding the East vs. West in the semi-finals creates a fair scenario for the traveling schools most of the time. One thing that comes to my thoughts on this is: Ok your are the lower seed so you travel and deal with the problems of traveling several hours on Thanksgiving day or the day after because you earned a lower seed. But in my opinion being a 3 or 4 seed should not put the kind of roadblocks in front of your team that are this extreme. If nothing else a Neutral site should be set up like we do for the finals. Or we seed the West side of the state all the way to the semi-finals to play each other and the winner goes on to the championship. It is unfortunate that sometimes some of the top teams are in the same district or region or side of the state. But my opinion is that the KHSAA is going to far to try to aid the "top 2" teams to make it to the finals to avoid those 2 teams playing early in the playoffs (round 3 or round 4). And finally I will add that I am very discouraged that we are going to decide who the best 2 teams are based on a computer program rankings. It just feels like we are taking the 'high school' out of high school football to some extent in order to CREATE certain match ups in the finals. If we (Franklin-Simpson) would have believed rankings etc the last 2 seasons we would have just stayed home and not bothered playing the state championship game because we were already beaten by Johnson Central before we got there. And I will add this - If we had went through the scenario I described above I don't know if we could have overcome all the travel time going to say Ashland or JC in the semi-finals and still had enough left to win in the finals.

    Guys I hope in the meeting that takes place this week that the KHSAA and the board of control consider the round 4 seeding problems and come up with a better plan.

  3. #108
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    Coaches I first want to acknowledge that I have read quotes from our commissioner saying there would be a consideration of geography in playoff round 4. I have not yet heard the plan and maybe I missed it being explained. Also, I want to thank Chuck Smith, David Buchanan, Craig Foley and Kevin Wallace for responding to my questions over the last few days in regards to playoff structure. I also appreciate Johny Poynter and Josh Jaggers thoughts they have shared with me about the playoff structure. I, like most of you, am against playing our district opponents in the first 2 rounds. We as coaches should not have to accept a little change to repair what passed last week. Round 4 issues must be addressed in the upcoming meeting with the commissioner this week in my opinion.

    This scenario/opinion I am sending you is my humble opinion based on 29 years of coaching with 27 at the high school level.

    Topic: Seeding round 4

    My biggest concern with any plan using seeding is not with seeding but with seeding that will have travel from the West side of the state to East or just the opposite prior to the championship game. I posted this last year and I'll stick by my issue this year.

    Scenario: A team out West (and FS is not real far West by the way) is seed 3 or 4 in the semi-finals and has to travel to say Corbin or Johnson Central. So to make that 5 hour trip (or longer) a school has to decide to travel on Thanksgiving Day and find hotel rooms (and the money to pay for those rooms, meals) and kids are now on the road instead of with Family on Thanksgiving day. Then after arriving the school (coach) has to find something for the team to do to occupy their time on Friday (you gotta check out of those hotel rooms fairly early) until a couple of hours before the game (so your team is completely out of sorts compared to their normal routine) so the kids won't be resting mentally etc. So you go to play the game against a team that is well rested that was at home for Thanksgiving with family, friends and spent Friday watching film, resting, walking through, getting motivated by staff and whatever. Or we could choose to put our team on the bus to travel 5 hours or longer on game day. Again many of the same issues will still exist. Do you travel 5 hours or longer and arrive 2 hours before the game? The kids are spent from that bus ride. Emotionally they will struggle. There is no doubt about it. And don't forget they have been sitting crumpled up on that bus for all those hours. And I assume the two teams are fairly even or close enough to make a decent game. Please don't allow yourself to fall into the trap of thinking "I would just be glad to have my team in the semi-finals". Once you are there you want to win!! But with all this to overcome the traveling team is put at a huge disadvantage and therefore most likely ends their season that night.

    Now let's say this team somehow overcomes this scenario and wins the game on the road. So now I have to have my kids on a 5 hour (or longer) bus ride home that night (and hopefully there will not be lightning delays like we had in the semi-finals this past season) (safety concerns etc for the long day for bus drivers etc.) or we come up with money for hotel rooms and meals for a second night. So let's say we get back home on Saturday afternoon or we drive half the night. This team now has to prepare (coaches and players) for the State Championship game. We (they) are mentally and physically drained at this point going into Sunday preparation and Monday practice. So we now get ready to go to Lexington for the championship. Now our school has to find more money for more team meals, rooms, busses, etc to make a 3 or 4 hour trip ( or longer for a team way out West like Mayfield). All of this and let's say we are going to Lexington to play a team 2 hours or less from Lexington (or maybe they are in Lexington) that was very likely playing at home themselves on Thanksgiving weekend with all those advantages the home team I just described will have due to the cross bracket seeding of the semi-finals of East Vs West.

    I am sure their are several other scenarios that could be worse than what I describe here or better. But for sure we have always played on our side of the state to represent that side of the state in the finals and to somewhat help with not having these scenarios like the one I have described. One of the questions I have discussed with football advisory committee members is are we doing what is good for football in Kentucky? I do believe these coaches are giving good advice to the KHSAA. I do think seeding of some sort is Ok. But I don't think seeding the East vs. West in the semi-finals creates a fair scenario for the traveling schools most of the time. One thing that comes to my thoughts on this is: Ok your are the lower seed so you travel and deal with the problems of traveling several hours on Thanksgiving day or the day after because you earned a lower seed. But in my opinion being a 3 or 4 seed should not put the kind of roadblocks in front of your team that are this extreme. If nothing else a Neutral site should be set up like we do for the finals. Or we seed the West side of the state all the way to the semi-finals to play each other and the winner goes on to the championship and do the same for the East side of the state.

    It is unfortunate that sometimes some of the top teams are in the same district or region or side of the state. But my opinion is that the KHSAA is going to far to try to aid the "top 2" teams to make it to the finals to avoid those 2 teams playing early in the playoffs (round 3 or round 4). And finally I will add that I am very discouraged that we are going to decide who the best 2 teams are based on a computer program rankings. It just feels like we are taking the 'high school' out of high school football to some extent in order to CREATE certain match ups in the finals. If we (Franklin-Simpson) would have believed rankings etc the last 2 seasons we would have just stayed home and not bothered playing the state championship game because we were already beaten by Johnson Central before we got there. And I will add this - If we had went through the scenario I described above I don't know if we could have overcome all the travel time going to say Ashland or JC in the semi-finals and still had enough left to win in the finals.

    Guys I hope in the meeting that takes place this week that the KHSAA and the board of control consider the round 4 seeding problems and come up with a fair plan.

    Thanks for reading and good luck with your off-season work.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATLCat View Post
    I dont know who Daniel Hopkins is but I like him now.
    Heard he's a good fellow!

  5. #110
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    I think CoachP has very valid points about travel.

    I personally believe the beginning rounds of the playoffs are to establish the best team in each class by geographic REGION which could then lead to a seeding situation for the final two rounds -- essential if wanting the best chance to get to the top 2 teams in finals.

    I think there are a couple different ways travel difficulties could be mitigated if seeding for the semifinals:

    Play semifinals on SATURDAY of Thanksgiving weekend at centrally-located neutral sites--this would mean no school has to have their kids away from their families on Thanksgiving Day.

    It would require six different sites to host double-headers in the central corridor of Ky. (think: small colleges and HS's w/ turf fields between I-75 and I-65).

    Game times could be 2:30pm and 6:00pm (Eastern Time) to allow for teams to choose same-day travel instead of an overnight stay (the 6:00pm time assigned to the game with the team having to travel the greatest distance to the site).

    The teams playing at 2:30 EST would hopefully have no more than a 3-hour trip so might have to leave home around 8:00am (if on Central Time) to get to the site 2 hours before the game. This doesn't seem egregiously early as many teams have worked off this type of schedule to get to UofL, WKU, or UK for state finals games in the past (most I've talked to that have been multiple times say they prefer same-day travel over spend-the-night-before).

    The teams playing at 6:00pm would have their game end between 8:30 to 9:00 so they'd likely not be traveling during the wee hours of the morning even if to the far ends of the state.

    I think such a system could be a win also for high schools/colleges choosing to host as they could be rewarded with proceeds from concessions and gate-receipts beyond expenses (travel for all four teams, officials, etc.).

    Regardless of what is decided--seeded or not-seeded--I'd like to see centrally-located neutral sites for the semifinals to limit the chances of one team having to travel significantly longer than the other. By the time you get to the final 4, I'm not sure it's right that one team should get 'home field advantage' either through a ratings system or the random assigning of home field as is done now through linking up even- and odd-numbered years/regions.
    Last edited by CoachJ; Jan 21, 19 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #111
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    I'd like to see the KHSAA go back to offering 8-man football for schools with Class A size enrollment, schools that formerly had football and dropped it, or schools that are looking to start a program for the first time. That would eliminate several 0-10 schools and allow the KHSAA to re-class to five classes if they aren't going to do four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scribe View Post
    I'd like to see the KHSAA go back to offering 8-man football for schools with Class A size enrollment, schools that formerly had football and dropped it, or schools that are looking to start a program for the first time. That would eliminate several 0-10 schools and allow the KHSAA to re-class to five classes if they aren't going to do four.
    They asked and apparently had no takers!

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scribe View Post
    I'd like to see the KHSAA go back to offering 8-man football for schools with Class A size enrollment, schools that formerly had football and dropped it, or schools that are looking to start a program for the first time. That would eliminate several 0-10 schools and allow the KHSAA to re-class to five classes if they aren't going to do four.
    Quote Originally Posted by okie1 View Post
    They asked and apparently had no takers!
    During the most recent triennial survey only eight schools expressed interest in participating in 8-man football.

    -Lincoln County and West Jessamine can probably be struck from the list since they appear to have voted yes on everything.

    -Eminence, Fairview, and Fulton City voted yes and currently field 11-man teams.

    -Wolfe County voted yes and has now instituted JV football.

    -Burgin and Frankfort Christian expressed interest and don't currently have a team of any type.

    https://khsaa.org/reports/triennials...%20results.pdf
    Last edited by gchs_uk9; Jan 22, 19 at 01:33 PM.

  9. #114
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    Yesterday from the KHSAA:

    The Board also sought to clarify the role that RPI will play in the football playoffs next season, advising staff to revise the competition rules to specify that football will seed third round games based on the Playoff RPI, which is the RPI at the end of the final regular-season contests. In each class, the highest remaining seed in regions 1-4 shall host the fourth highest remaining in regions 1-4; the 2nd highest remaining seed in regions 1-4 shall host the third highest remaining seed in regions 1-4; the highest remaining seed in regions 5-8 shall host the fourth highest remaining in regions 5-8 and the 2nd highest remaining seed in regions 5-8 shall host the third highest remaining seed in regions 5-8.

    For the fourth round, in all classes, the highest remaining seed hosts the fourth highest remaining seed and the 2nd highest remaining seed hosts the third highest remaining seed. For the championship games, the highest seed remaining will be the home team on the scoreboard and wear their dark jerseys.

    “Someday, there will be an issue related to the football playoffs that is unanimously received by all of those involved with the game at our level. But that day likely isn’t today and like most times, the Board is left to sort through a wide variety of thoughts and opinions and make the decisions that they think are best after balancing all perspectives,” said Tackett. “It is certainly my hope from my position, that our membership and the public will give open-minded support to the adopted changes throughout this next alignment period.

    “The game of football, both nationally and statewide, has such an impact on our communities and our schools. I am happy that the Board thoroughly reviewed the alternatives for not only enhancement of the game, but also for dealing with the very real and present budget concerns that are presented to today’s programs. While there are things that might be wished for in a perfect world, today’s world around football is not perfect, and stabilization and continuance of this great American tradition have forced our Board to make some uncomfortable decisions. Everyone involved is challenged to think bigger picture than just next game or next year, and in many cases, not make the popular decision, but the best decision. Our Board feels strongly that these decisions are in the best interest of the member schools and is passionate about keeping this great game strong.”

  10. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by theguru View Post

    “Someday, there will be an issue related to the football playoffs that is unanimously received by all of those involved with the game at our level. But that day likely isn’t today and like most times, the Board is left to sort through a wide variety of thoughts and opinions and make the decisions that they think are best after balancing all perspectives,” said Tackett. “It is certainly my hope from my position, that our membership and the public will give open-minded support to the adopted changes throughout this next alignment period.”
    This is true, no system will please EVERYONE... but, 90% of coaches who participated voted AGAINST playing within the district. That isn't everyone, but 9 or 10 coaches agreeing on something should be listened to. They did not have "wide variety of thoughts and opinions." This is just the usual, disingenuous deflection from KHSAA.

  11. #116
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    One positive is St.X and Trinity won’t be playing Ohio County in first round like the last two years. Little more competitive first round games. Definitely hurts weaker teams in District with perrenial powers.

  12. #117

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    So does Trinity district winner get a first-round bye? Since there's only a three-team district or will the KHSAA make the fifth place team from District 1 drive 3-plus hours to play?

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    Have talked to a lot of coaches since all this happened.

    I still say the RPI thing is not a bad deal, but the fact that Julian Tackett can sit there and say "unanimously received by all of those involved with the game at our level" with any sincerity at all is laughable.

    Truly, if I had to guess, maybe 10 programs in the state that like the new format the way it is and most of those are coaches who don't vote for anything. It's as close to unanimous as you can get - the other way!

    I know five superintendents (or assistant supers) across the state and not one of the five said they had any knowledge of this before it happened.

    Oh and by the way, the same teams are still going to win.

  14. #119

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    One of the bigger issues I think we will see moving forward with this seeding the regionals thing is going to be after the first 2 years. If a program is struggling let’s just say in these first 2 years they will have a tough time fielding a schedule because any team with serious playoff run thoughts will stay away from the “gimme games” as that won’t help them any. Just my two cents about it.

  15. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatz View Post
    So District rivals play each other right out of the gate in the playoffs?

    Why play at all in the regular season if you have to turn right around and play them again in Round 1 and 2?
    Lol nobody said the people who make these decisions are smart.

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