I don't understand the logic behind this rocket science??

Page 5 of Originally Posted by The Golfer Agreed, that's why I would make the limit in the low 50's at the highest. If the NFL can play with 53 there is no one w... 77 comments | 3066 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by runningref
    In basketball, you can get all of the kids into the playoffs (or all of those that choose to enter the district tournament) with one class, because you can play multiple games in one week. In football however, because you generally can play only one game per week, it would take sixteen weeks to play a one class system with everyone in. So you divide into classes, not to mention the numbers disparity. The philosophy of coaches has shifted as some of the "newer" generation is more comfortable with more teams getting an opportunity for the playoffs. Just like baseball, basketball, softball, soccer and volleyball.

    It is understandable that those who have attended Beechwood, and other schools such as Highlands, Cov. Cath, Danville, St. X, Trinity, might not all be for it. They haven't been shut out of the current system very often. But for the others, who have not tasted the playoffs, that's where the impetus has come from.

    Plus, it helps with the great disparity that exists in both the top Class (4A, with actually enrollments from 1040 to 2100) and bottom Class (1A, 101 to 531).

    Or at least that's what the coaches are saying that were on the committee.
    I'd rather allow the football teams eliminated early or not making the playoffs to continue to practice until the state game if they want to and if their coaches think practice time is the issue ( I have a hunch there will be a whole lot of coaches that just pack it in after they are eliminated, but maybe I'm wrong, lets try it and prove me wrong) , or allow them to start practicing two a days a week earlier than the successful teams if the unsuccessful teams wants to. That helps them get better and gives them a leg up in competing with the successful teams. But we shouldn't pull the good teams down; we shouldn't lower or degrade the quality of football in this state, and we most definitely should not adopt any rule that reduces the number of kids participating in sports in high school. This idea of limiting squad size sickens me.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by runningref
    In basketball, you can get all of the kids into the playoffs (or all of those that choose to enter the district tournament) with one class, because you can play multiple games in one week. In football however, because you generally can play only one game per week, it would take sixteen weeks to play a one class system with everyone in. So you divide into classes, not to mention the numbers disparity. The philosophy of coaches has shifted as some of the "newer" generation is more comfortable with more teams getting an opportunity for the playoffs. Just like baseball, basketball, softball, soccer and volleyball.

    It is understandable that those who have attended Beechwood, and other schools such as Highlands, Cov. Cath, Danville, St. X, Trinity, might not all be for it. They haven't been shut out of the current system very often. But for the others, who have not tasted the playoffs, that's where the impetus has come from.

    Plus, it helps with the great disparity that exists in both the top Class (4A, with actually enrollments from 1040 to 2100) and bottom Class (1A, 101 to 531).

    Or at least that's what the coaches are saying that were on the committee.
    If the goal is getting everyone to the postseason then KY can go the IN route and last time I checked it doesn't take sixteen weeks to play all the games.

    I guess using Beechwood as an example is a shot at me... For what it is worth I have been on a couple of football teams in my lifetime that never made the postseason.

    You are always going to have statistical anomalies like St. X/Trinity and some very small schools but you can't have the tail wagging the dog because of it. Besides, T and X are still going to be grouped with all of the crybaby schools anyway so nothing will change in the 6A class.

    Think about this (these numbers are off the top of my head) if these same rocket scientist proposing this garbage were in Ohio there would be something like 20 classes in football. If Ohio went to a 20 class football system they would be a laughingstock.

    All of this brings me to my point, if we are going to water our football titles down to the point of being a national laughingstock (BECAUSE SIZE DOES MATTER) why aren't the same rocket scientist looking to classify basketball for the same reason?

    Football and Basketball are different sports but the same logic still applies here and Pigskin said it better than I can so I am going to quote him:

    The chances of digging up a diamond are greater when you take 1500 shovels of dirt vs taking 200 shovels of dirt and the chances are greater of getting a Chris Lofton when you are choosing from 1500 boys vs. choosing 200 boys, is it not?
    In basketball I can see only having two or maybe three classes at the most but you can't argue that size only matters in football and not basketball.

    All the one class basketball arguments remind of all the Bowl Champion Series garbage where everyone that benefits (this can be in several forms) from the current system gives the rest of us a million and one excuses why the BCS is the best way to do things when we all know D1 college football teams would be better served with a playoff system just like every other level of college, pro, and high school football.

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    In a sense they have split classes in basketball. They now have the All A tournament. The good teams in class A get to compete for 2 state titles. Especially in girls basketball. I believe that Clinton Co. won( or at least played in the finals of the All A), and also played in the finals of the girls Sweet 16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bucki
    In a sense they have split classes in basketball. They now have the All A tournament. The good teams in class A get to compete for 2 state titles. Especially in girls basketball. I believe that Clinton Co. won( or at least played in the finals of the All A), and also played in the finals of the girls Sweet 16.
    I don't know how many times we have to cover this one, the All A CLASSIC is NOT a state championship. I know the schools that win it like to pretend it is, but it is NOT a state title. If you want to discuss the All A CLASSIC further do it in another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    And I agree with you there, as far as the logic goes. The answer isn't 6 classes in football anymore than it is 1 class in basketball.
    Good point. If we are going to have 6 classes in football, then we ought to go ahead and have 2 in basketball, 1 for the A & AA schools and 1 for the AAA & AAAA schools. They could still have a Sweet 16, but it could be 2 different tournaments at Rupp with 8 making it from each class competing for the 2 titles. They could even have back-2-back title games.

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    I played my high school sports in Virginia. There are 3 classes for every sport. You play the same size schools for every sport. Everyone in your football district is in your baseball, basketball, golf, etc... Why is this concept so hard to understand in Kentucky. I think the 6 class idea is a good idea; however this is only because the private vs. public failed. Which was the better idea in the first place. There is just not enough talent in the rest of the state to be on the same page competion wise, with these private schools. IMO Have the private schools in there own division. Go to a 3A or 4A system and have it in every sport. It works well in Virginia.

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    Please lets not go and mess with the State High School Basketball Tournament. They call it "The Greatest Show on Earth" for a reason. Nothing in this state compares or even comes close to the state tourney. As they say "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix it" and no truer words could be spoken about the State Basketball Tournament.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGZIG
    Please lets not go and mess with the State High School Basketball Tournament. They call it "The Greatest Show on Earth" for a reason. Nothing in this state compares or even comes close to the state tourney. As they say "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix it" and no truer words could be spoken about the State Basketball Tournament.
    Not disagreeing with that however, would the football tournament not destroy the basketball tournament if the final 16 teams played in a central location over a weekend for 4 straight weekends? Monetarily speaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGZIG
    Please lets not go and mess with the State High School Basketball Tournament. They call it "The Greatest Show on Earth" for a reason. Nothing in this state compares or even comes close to the state tourney. As they say "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix it" and no truer words could be spoken about the State Basketball Tournament.
    What? Have a state championship where only the best teams play? That's just crazy talk! Trophys for everyone!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HHSDad
    What? Have a state championship where only the best teams play? That's just crazy talk! Trophys for everyone!
    That is pretty much what it's coming to isn't it HHSDad. God forbid little Billie or little Susie doesn't get some sort of an award so that we don't destroy their precious and fragile little hearts. We as parents, (not you or I of course) our generation, have brought a lot of screwed up kids into the world and the next generation is even worse.

  11. #71
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    Leatherneck,

    I agree with many of your points and for football having 70, 100, however many you want to dress works. Most football teams have a staff of many coaches. In soccer there is no way to carry a team of 30 or 40 varsity and 30 or 40 JV. You covered the issues with basketball. We simply do not have the staff(usually a head coach varsity and a head coach JV) to be able to efficiently run a practice for that large a number of players, much less a game. I agree with you to an extent that high school sports are about learning and growing as a person, I disagree with the idea that they should be focused first on participation. That is what recreational and intramural leagues are for. Playing a sport for your school is a privilege not a right.

    Back on topic. Basketball has enough teams to seriously consider classification. I do think though that if you have ever participated in a non-class state championship tournament as either a player or a coach, you would realize how special that is. There is something magical about the sweet 16. Everyone plays everyone. I remember watching Cov Holy Cross, Paintsville, and Carlisle County have deep runs in the tourney and thinking how cool that must have been to know that your little school took on the best of the best and succeeded.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGZIG
    That is pretty much what it's coming to isn't it HHSDad. God forbid little Billie or little Susie doesn't get some sort of an award so that we don't destroy their precious and fragile little hearts. We as parents, (not you or I of course) our generation, have brought a lot of screwed up kids into the world and the next generation is even worse.

    BigZig, remember the date of November 18, 2005 for on that date you and I agreed on something. There may be a few other dates like that ( I doubt there will be many ) but there is no doubt that I agree with you today on the above post.

    Someone mentioned "today's generation" of head coaches wanting more classes so more kids get the opportunity to play in the playoffs. If that is the mentality of today's generation, maybe we should stop blaming all the big corporate execs for moving the jobs overseas and ask one another: can we blame them? Good lordy if this is the message we are teaching our kids: you don't have to work hard to succeed if you don't want to, we'll just measure success by lowering the bar, how in the heck can we expect these kids when the get into the workforce to be able to cut it.

    Suck it up, work harder, get it done or at least lose with nobility. Somebody is always going to lose and if you lose the game after having done it all, after having given it all, you've actually won! I am proud to have been on a state championship team my senior year, but I am equally proud of my junior year where we worked just has hard but didn't even make it to the playoffs. Honestly the lessons I learned that year may mean more to me than my senior year and the state title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherneck
    Golfer, with all respect (and I really mean it), I must TOTALLY disagree with you on this issue. Even if having 110 players on a team does give one team an advantage in a game (which I don't agree with at all) unless we are all hypocrits, the merits of a whole lot of kids getting to participate in athletics (because we all say athletics is a very important part of the educational process) more than out ways any advantage does it not?

    Frankly I am in favor or removing any size limit for any sport that safety and space limits permits. Realistically you can only get so many kids sitting courtside at a basketball game. But put them in the front row if you want to. I don't care. They are not going to impact the outcome of any game this year most likely. Admittedly by being able to participate on the team and getting to practice all year long, they should be better next year players next year, but surely the coaches in this state don't want kids to get the opportunity to better themselves. Please tell me that's no so! Put them all on the soccer team if you want. Let them all be on the golf team if they want. Why do we have those limits in other sports to begin with? To me, most of those limits should be local school funding issues, not KHSAA issues, anyway.

    I am really disappointed that this "level playing field" tidal wave has now gotten to the point that we are talking about depriving kids the opportunity to participate in sports, to belong to something, to be a part of a team, to have the best opportunity to become the best athlete possible. And its going to penalize everyone. If the coach cuts the sophomores, it will severely hinder their chances of being as good of a football player as a senior as they otherwise could have been (can you imagine the set back from losing one half of your practice time going into your senior year? Is that the real purpose of this squad limit idea: to lower the talent level on the good teams to the talent level of the average and poor teams by depriving the amount of practice times some kids get? When you really pull back the sheets and look what's under them, this idea is not a pretty sight).

    Plus the kids who play for the love of the game, that don't have the talent to play in the games but have the passion for football and love for their teammates will most likely get summarily dismissed due to squad size limitations and will basically be told: "you cannot be on the team because the coaches of Ky. are more interested in their team winning than your participation on a team". And you can dress that bunch of crud up any way you want to, but you still have a bunch of crud. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

    I personally think a whole lot of coaches and other supporters need to think again why they got into coaching and what the REAL purpose of athletics in high school is all about (which is a completely different mission than college and the pro's). This concept really disappoints me. Sorry if I've offended anyone out there (especially you Golfer, whom I consider a friend), but this idea of limiting squad size really is totally contrary to what we are supposed to be all about in high school sports. And for the first time blatantly places the priority to win in front of participation in athletics.

    Finally, I think the KHSAA, the coaches, the administrators need to be real careful in what they are pushing for. There is growing amount of attention in Frankfort being focused on what is going on and the proposals being bantered about, and its not favorable attention if you know what I mean. The State Board is watching closely. More and more legislators are getting involved. Most of you don't realize this, but the KHSAA basically has a year to year "contract" with the State Board of Education to serve as its agent and run high school sports in Ky. If things keep going that way, it is very possible (notice I didn't say likely) that some legislators are going to start aggresively pushing for another way/entity to run high school sports. And please don't say that will never happen. It just may and you'll just have to trust me on this.

    Golfer, if a 4A school only has 40 players on it what's the real issue here? When we push aside the curtains and look back stage, what we are doing here is simply penalizing the programs that do a great job of getting kids to play sports to help out those that don't or can't get the kids to come out. Usually, I'll admit, its the successful teams that do a good job of getting kids to play on the team because admittedly people like being part of a winner. What you want to do is to penalize successful programs because they are successful. That is not only totally against everything this country is about, it should be totally against everything that a coach is about. If this idea doesn't work, what's next: the number of coaches per team; the number of hours you can work out during the off season; the dollars spent on athletic programs; the number of kids per team that are able to bench press 350 lbs or run a 4.6; the square footage of locker room and weight room per player? Are we going to start eliminating a game or two from each state champions following season because they got to practice 5 extra weeks during the championship season? Where will this end? Because if we can start with telling kids they can't play high school sports in order to "level the playing field" all those other options have to be viable in some folks minds. I'm sorry but the coaches and other people pushing this idea are just wrong.

    Dang it if Chuck Smith could do it, every coach at every school in Ky can do it. And if a school has a coach who isn't getting it done and winning a state championship is so dang important to that school, tell that coach its time to move on and get some one who can get it done.

    Sorry for the long post, its a two cup'er, and sorry if I offended folks (again, particularly you Golfer), but when you start messing with kids being able to participate in high school sports, I get testy real quick. Its totally against what high school sports are supposed to be about.

    And finally to comply with the rules I'll address the original question of this thread: I do think that there should be classifications in basketball and soccer, but only two or at most 3.

    I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me. I never said we have to now kick kids off the team just a dress limit. The KHSAA has no roster limits as of right now. Any body can still play football practice play JV or Freshman games and can stand on the sideline if they want but they should not be in uniform on Friday Night if they go over the dress limit.

    If the KHSAA has those limits for other sports it's not fair for one kid to have to sit on the sideline in his sport while another can dress. It should be equal in all sports. No body seems to care if little peter doesn't make the basketball team but it's for the kids when it comes to football.

    Soccer has a limit and they play on a bigger field than football.

    I like my idea because I think it saves the private schools from being kicked out of the state. In the six class idea Jim Mckee is still in the same class as Trinity and St. X and he has been the leader of getting rid of them. Do you really think this will stop him and others?

    If nothing is done the private schools will be gone very soon.
    Last edited by The Golfer; Nov 18, 05 at 10:37 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherneck
    BigZig, remember the date of November 18, 2005 for on that date you and I agreed on something.
    Just to make sure, we're not in hades are we? If so, it HAS frozen over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Golfer
    I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me. I never said we have to now kick kids off the team just a dress limit. The KHSAA has no roster limits as of right now. Any body can still play football practice play JV or Freshman games and can stand on the sideline if they want but they should not be in uniform on Friday Night if they go over the dress limit.

    If the KHSAA has those limits for other sports it's not fair for one kid to have to sit on the sideline in his sport while another can dress. It should be equal in all sports. No body seems to care if little peter doesn't make the basketball team but it's for the kids when it comes to football.

    Soccer has a limit and they play on a bigger field than football.

    I like my idea because I think it saves the private schools from being kicked out of the state. In the six class idea Jim Mckee is still in the same class as Trinity and St. X and he has been the leader of getting rid of them. Do you really think this will stop him and others?

    If nothing is done the private schools will be gone very soon.

    Golf, you know I don't want to see them gone either. Heck, I'm looking forward to Highlands giving a little payback to the X Tigers next year and I don't care if they have 200 kids on the sideline.

    I guess I feel if a kid is going to practice all week, go through all the two a days, go through the off season conditioning program, and maybe even give up another sport to play spring football, why shouldn't he be able to be on the sidelines in uniform? I mean really, unless you propose something like a limit of less than 50 for 4A, its not likely the kid you are going to force out of uniform on the sidelines is going to ever step foot on the field unless its a blowout. And if its a blowout and the deep subs are not able to be on the sideline, that means the starters or talented replacements are going to be kept in the game, which means a bigger blowout does it not? Which means more threads on here about running up the score, the losing kids self esteem being devastated, yada, yada, yada. Guru will be happy because we'll have a lot more threads and posts about running up the score, but that's about the only possible benefit I see from this idea. And who really cares about the Ru anyway .

    I agree with you that it doesn't make sense that some of the other sports have roster limitations, just like I agree with the Ru that it doesn't make sense that some sports don't have classifications. I'd get rid of the KHSAA mandated roster limitation for all sports period. If the basketball coach wants to have roster limits due to practice time issues etc. that's his business. But if we are in the business of promoting high school sports because we believe that participation in athletics is beneficial to the kids, then really let them participate and that means be dressed and on the sidelines for the games. What realistically can it hurt? I mean realistically if a kid can do all the things that you espouse but just can't dress, what does it matter if he dresses. If a team is worrying about the number of kids on the other team running out from the locker room, they're already beat anyway in my opinion. Sorry to disagree with your idea. And can't you see how this idea could be just another step in the wrong direction of trying to mandate equality in everything between the schools? What will be proposed next to find that ever elusive level playing field?
    Last edited by leatherneck; Nov 18, 05 at 11:33 AM.

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