2018 Whitaker Bank/KHSAA State Tournament

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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    So by your logic, you’re ok with messing up seeding as long as it’s done the way you want it.
    I don’t get how you arrived at that conclusion. I’m not worried about how it’s seeded because it’s just not that hard to seed. Give me 16 coaches, 16 writers, or heck 16 BGP members from each region, give me everybody’s records and who they’ve played and I’ll get the tourney seeded in an hour. Or give me an objective formula based set criteria, and we can plug the teams in and the computer can seed it objectively in 30 seconds. There are plenty of logical, solid proven ways to do it. Sure, you may miss a team by a spot (or 2 or 3), but in the grand scheme of things, that won’t matter so much.
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  2. #32
    Jim Schue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    I don’t get how you arrived at that conclusion. I’m not worried about how it’s seeded because it’s just not that hard to seed. Give me 16 coaches, 16 writers, or heck 16 BGP members from each region, give me everybody’s records and who they’ve played and I’ll get the tourney seeded in an hour. Or give me an objective formula based set criteria, and we can plug the teams in and the computer can seed it objectively in 30 seconds. There are plenty of logical, solid proven ways to do it. Sure, you may miss a team by a spot (or 2 or 3), but in the grand scheme of things, that won’t matter so much.
    Good luck with the writers part of that. We're already stretched awfully thin and paid poorly, and while I can't speak for my colleagues, some of us don't like to spend our non-work time on more work.

    Best you might get is a mix of coaches and some computer rankings. That will cause much howling, because it's debatable how deeply the coaches will get involved with the process.

    And I will have to question your statement about 90 percent of a team's schedule being "meaningless." At least in the district I'm in, the 5 schools play three-game series to decide the district tournament seeding, then 2 or perhaps 3 more in district, and ever how many games they play in the region.

    For example, Nelson Co. played 15 games against district opponents last year as a No. 4 seed winning the 19th District, then 3 more before falling in the region final. They went 21-19 overall, and played 18 of their 40 games with some kind of postseason implications on the line.

    In our same district this year, Washington Co. played 14 games against district opponents and 2 more in region play. They had 33 total games.

  3. #33
    00Rocket28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    I don’t get how you arrived at that conclusion. I’m not worried about how it’s seeded because it’s just not that hard to seed. Give me 16 coaches, 16 writers, or heck 16 BGP members from each region, give me everybody’s records and who they’ve played and I’ll get the tourney seeded in an hour. Or give me an objective formula based set criteria, and we can plug the teams in and the computer can seed it objectively in 30 seconds. There are plenty of logical, solid proven ways to do it. Sure, you may miss a team by a spot (or 2 or 3), but in the grand scheme of things, that won’t matter so much.
    Your suggestions just don’t seem to be that much better. At least with a blind drawing, you’re eliminating the chance of nepotism.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    Your suggestions just don’t seem to be that much better. At least with a blind drawing, you’re eliminating the chance of nepotism.
    That’s why you need some criteria. Criteria takes out subjectivity. I’ve lived in and still follow sports in states that seed. And it works out fine. Yes there are some complaints here there, mostly people worked up about a couple of spots. But the tournaments still run fine, and are very competitive and balanced. Plus, seeding creates real Cinderella stories. My alma mater just advanced to the state semis as a #17 seed, beating #1 in the second round, and another higher seed in the quarters. And more importantly, it creates no easy paths to the finals because brackets are balanced.

    I understand the tradition here. But, it just seems like we are making seeding out to be so much more difficult than it really is.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    That’s why you need some criteria. Criteria takes out subjectivity. I’ve lived in and still follow sports in states that seed. And it works out fine. Yes there are some complaints here there, mostly people worked up about a couple of spots. But the tournaments still run fine, and are very competitive and balanced. Plus, seeding creates real Cinderella stories. My alma mater just advanced to the state semis as a #17 seed, beating #1 in the second round, and another higher seed in the quarters. And more importantly, it creates no easy paths to the finals because brackets are balanced.

    I understand the tradition here. But, it just seems like we are making seeding out to be so much more difficult than it really is.
    So what’s your criteria? It’s easy to blindly say buzz words like “criteria” or “formula”.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    So what’s your criteria? It’s easy to blindly say buzz words like “criteria” or “formula”.
    You can always start with head to head, then common opponent, then some sort of ranking formula of which there are a few to choose from. Those aren’t buzz words. Those are real things, easy to find and use. It’s not really that hard.

  7. #37
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    I saw softball state tourney is double elimination. Why isn’t baseball double elimination?

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ23 View Post
    There are a few real simple ways to do it. Ohio uses a similar format to seed their sectional tournaments...take the 16 coaches of the teams who have qualified and have them seed the teams 1-15 (don't seed their own team). Teams get 15 points for a 1 seed down to 1 point for a 15 seed. Compile the points from the 16 coaches seeds and the team with the most points gets seeded 1, second most points is the 2, and so on until you have teams seeded 1-16. The 1 seed gets to pick their spot in the bracket, followed by the 2 seed, and so on until the 16th seed fills the final spot on the bracket and your first round matchups are set. This makes regular season wins, strength of schedule, etc mean something.

    The other option would be to have a rotating head coach from each region seed the teams regardless of whether or not their team was in it that year.

    Personally, I like the first option.
    I love the way Ohio does their draw. I know this is the way basketball is done. Do they do the same for baseball?

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerpride94 View Post
    I saw softball state tourney is double elimination. Why isn’t baseball double elimination?
    Baseball takes twice as long to play and needs a lot more pitchers. Besides, no one outside the biggest schools would agree to double elimination.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    You can always start with head to head, then common opponent, then some sort of ranking formula of which there are a few to choose from. Those aren’t buzz words. Those are real things, easy to find and use. It’s not really that hard.
    There is the problem. A region 1&16 will likely not have head to head and most likely no common opponents. Then we’re back to another “buzz word” with no definition in your “formula rankings.” In theory, seeding sounds great for the big city schools. Not so much the rural regions.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    There is the problem. A region 1&16 will likely not have head to head and most likely no common opponents. Then we’re back to another “buzz word” with no definition in your “formula rankings.” In theory, seeding sounds great for the big city schools. Not so much the rural regions.
    This is not true at all. McCracken in region 1 plays teams from all over the state every year. Paducah Tilghman does also. McCracken has won that region every year since the school opened. Greenup County in region 16 plays several teams from Lex, Lou, and NKY every year. The good teams from the rural regions understand that playing teams outside of your own little bubble help prepare you for post season. Those that don't play any teams from outside their area are likely teams that won't be making it to the state tournament. You can look at other rural regions as well. The teams that typically represent those regions at the state tournament have played at least a handful of teams from the more populated areas.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfTroy View Post
    I love the way Ohio does their draw. I know this is the way basketball is done. Do they do the same for baseball?
    My brother in law coaches in Ohio, and yes it is done the same way as basketball.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerpride94 View Post
    I saw softball state tourney is double elimination. Why isn’t baseball double elimination?
    Not enough pitching plus I heard their state is moving to single elimination in the next few years. Also, baseball can play at awful city fields with break away fences too. The softball tournament venue is a joke and is not fitting for a state tournament.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    There is the problem. A region 1&16 will likely not have head to head and most likely no common opponents. Then we’re back to another “buzz word” with no definition in your “formula rankings.” In theory, seeding sounds great for the big city schools. Not so much the rural regions.
    As MJ mentioned, the top teams are venturing outside of the region, and almost every good team is traveling to play in at least one or two of the many showcase type events that are held all over the state. Again, not buzzwords, things that really happen. As far as formulas, once again, there are several that exist that are already being used in states across the country that work. Sorry I don’t have all the details on those formulas, but they are all based on record, strength of schedule etc. insulting them by calling them a “buzz word” doesn’t make them not exist or non functional. For example, North Carolina uses Max Preps, which I’m guessing the opponents of seeding will find some reason to hate.

    I’ll say it again. No seeding system will be perfect, and there will be some argument over a couple spots here and there. But it not only creates excitement and discussion (which may lead to better attendance), but it will also create more compelling matchups and give more meaning to the regular season as teams venture outside of their bubble to play better competition, rather than just focusing on 3 or 4 district games (or as Jim Schue mentioned 12 or so district games in a few districts who play a series). I get the fear that rural schools will get left behind in seeding. But the good teams will figure out what they need to do. KY sports in general would be much better off if we let go of some of these old traditions and embraced some new ideas. Any system that props up weaker teams is bad for the overall competitiveness of the state as a whole. It’s amazing to me that particular argument even exists, when you hear so much on this site about the “participation trophy” era. The current system does not reward hard work and success achieved during the regular season.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    Again, it’s not rocket science. I’ve run a wrestling tournament for the last 5 years with 250 wrestlers from 3 states. I can seed 15 weight classes full of kids, many of which I’ve never seen, some I’ve never even heard of, with 90% accuracy with 2 or 3 pieces of criteria. Is it really that hard to seed 16 baseball or basketball teams? Remember it doesn’t need to be perfect. It’s not that big of deal if you mix up 1 and 3, or 4 and 6. Upsets, and Cinderella runs will still happen. It’s just silly to me that teams play 30+ games every season, and 90% of them mean nothing.
    I get what you are saying. However why are you only upset about 90% of the regular season meaning nothing in terms of just the 16 teams who make it to stare? If it's not seeded for regionals, why should it be for state? Also if you want the season to mean something. Then probably should do away with even having district tournaments, and just seed the best 8 teams in the regional tournament based on the season. Because as it stands now only 2 or 3 games truly matter before regionals.

    So to me to its hard to pick and choose when you should value a teams whole regular season. If it's not valued in terms for the district or regional tournaments. Why all of a sudden should that matter for the state finalist?

    So I get what you are saying. However I don't think you should pick and choose what torunament you value the regular season for. If the regular season means nothing for two tournaments in district and regionals before it. If you change it, then might as well change the whole system.

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