2018 Whitaker Bank/KHSAA State Tournament

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  1. #16

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    Look at the regular season. Teams play 30-35 games and the only games that mean anything are the few District games they play for District Tournament seeding. Heck, the 26th District has St.X and Male and that's it, so those two teams play a full schedule of games that really don't mean a hill of beans. A St.X team that goes 33-2 against a very tough schedule, should not face a 28-6 PRP team in the first round who has its entire roster back from last year's State Championship squad. And no I don't have a dog in the fight. It's really just common sense.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJ23 View Post
    Seeding/rankings will always be subject to debate, but that's not a reason to not do it. NCAA does it every year, and yes some will complain but that's just the way it is and you live with it. To use a blind draw that makes your body of work in the regular season virtually meaningless is lazy. Teams should be rewarded for what they do in the regular season in my opinion.
    Let's hear a proposal about how an NCAA-style tournament selection method would be implemented for championship events at the HS level.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue View Post
    Let's hear a proposal about how an NCAA-style tournament selection method would be implemented for championship events at the HS level.
    Seeding doesn’t have to be rocket science and it certainly isn’t impossible. Nor do we have to reinvent the wheel. Many other states do some form of seeding...look at their systems and pick one that is the best fit. No system is going to be perfect, and not everyone will agree. But almost any system is better than just drawing names out of a hat.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    Seeding doesnít have to be rocket science and it certainly isnít impossible. Nor do we have to reinvent the wheel. Many other states do some form of seeding...look at their systems and pick one that is the best fit. No system is going to be perfect, and not everyone will agree. But almost any system is better than just drawing names out of a hat.
    Rotating the regional pairings is easy peasy too, and you only get the same opponent once every 15 years, unless teams change regions.

  5. #20
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    I think if you start trying to do the seeding, a lot of the more rural regions could be in jeopardy of getting screwed on a yearly basis because your Louisville metro/Lexington metro/NKY areas will always be looked at as the “favorites” because they play in the more populated areas. You’re far west and Far East regions will typically be playing catch-up in the standings from the get go. Blind draw is the only way to equally value each region championship.

  6. #21

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    Since bigger states like Ohio just continue to play out regionally, why not have pods like the NCAA. Regions 1-4 draw to play each other, regions 5-8 draw to play each other, regions 9-12, regions 13-16. The state draw would just put the 4 pods into quarters. Outside of something like this, I'm fine with the blind draw.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    I think if you start trying to do the seeding, a lot of the more rural regions could be in jeopardy of getting screwed on a yearly basis because your Louisville metro/Lexington metro/NKY areas will always be looked at as the “favorites” because they play in the more populated areas. You’re far west and Far East regions will typically be playing catch-up in the standings from the get go. Blind draw is the only way to equally value each region championship.
    Let’s be real....not all region champs are equal. Why should the Region “x” champ who played a weaker schedule and finished with a worse record be valued equally with the Region “y” champ who had a better record against better competition. We hear people complain so much about “participation trophies”, yet we want to make sure even the weaker teams get valued equally and a chance to advance in what’s supposed to be the “best” high school tourneys in the country. A team’s whole body of work throughout the regular season should mean something come tournament time. And if you start factoring in things like strength of schedule into the formula, you see teams scheduling tougher, and more great, meaningful regular season games.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    Let’s be real....not all region champs are equal. Why should the Region “x” champ who played a weaker schedule and finished with a worse record be valued equally with the Region “y” champ who had a better record against better competition. We hear people complain so much about “participation trophies”, yet we want to make sure even the weaker teams get valued equally and a chance to advance in what’s supposed to be the “best” high school tourneys in the country. A team’s whole body of work throughout the regular season should mean something come tournament time. And if you start factoring in things like strength of schedule into the formula, you see teams scheduling tougher, and more great, meaningful regular season games.
    Like I said, your team in the densely populated areas will always get more votes because they’re seen more and get more votes. The rural teams will always get screwed your way.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    Let’s be real....not all region champs are equal. Why should the Region “x” champ who played a weaker schedule and finished with a worse record be valued equally with the Region “y” champ who had a better record against better competition. We hear people complain so much about “participation trophies”, yet we want to make sure even the weaker teams get valued equally and a chance to advance in what’s supposed to be the “best” high school tourneys in the country. A team’s whole body of work throughout the regular season should mean something come tournament time. And if you start factoring in things like strength of schedule into the formula, you see teams scheduling tougher, and more great, meaningful regular season games.
    Exactly!

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    Like I said, your team in the densely populated areas will always get more votes because theyíre seen more and get more votes. The rural teams will always get screwed your way.
    ďVotesĒ donít need to be a part of selection. An objective formula based on several categories could be used to determine seeding. No votes required. Also, I donít see how the best teams in the state getting randomly screwed currently, is somehow more equitable and better than the weaker teams getting seeded in based on season long performance. In essence, under the current system, there is no value to playing, and performing well with a tough, competitive schedule.

    If being fair was so important, then maybe, more consideration should be given classing.

    For what itís worth, another state with a one class system (Delaware) seeds the tournament from top to bottom.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    “Votes” don’t need to be a part of selection. An objective formula based on several categories could be used to determine seeding. No votes required. Also, I don’t see how the best teams in the state getting randomly screwed currently, is somehow more equitable and better than the weaker teams getting seeded in based on season long performance. In essence, under the current system, there is no value to playing, and performing well with a tough, competitive schedule.

    If being fair was so important, then maybe, more consideration should be given classing.

    For what it’s worth, another state with a one class system (Delaware) seeds the tournament from top to bottom.
    I’d rather have it seeded by chance than a bunch of writers who’ve not seen all the teams play deciding the fate.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post

    For what it’s worth, another state with a one class system (Delaware) seeds the tournament from top to bottom.
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  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by 00Rocket28 View Post
    I’d rather have it seeded by chance than a bunch of writers who’ve not seen all the teams play deciding the fate.
    Again, it’s not rocket science. I’ve run a wrestling tournament for the last 5 years with 250 wrestlers from 3 states. I can seed 15 weight classes full of kids, many of which I’ve never seen, some I’ve never even heard of, with 90% accuracy with 2 or 3 pieces of criteria. Is it really that hard to seed 16 baseball or basketball teams? Remember it doesn’t need to be perfect. It’s not that big of deal if you mix up 1 and 3, or 4 and 6. Upsets, and Cinderella runs will still happen. It’s just silly to me that teams play 30+ games every season, and 90% of them mean nothing.

  14. #29

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    There are a few real simple ways to do it. Ohio uses a similar format to seed their sectional tournaments...take the 16 coaches of the teams who have qualified and have them seed the teams 1-15 (don't seed their own team). Teams get 15 points for a 1 seed down to 1 point for a 15 seed. Compile the points from the 16 coaches seeds and the team with the most points gets seeded 1, second most points is the 2, and so on until you have teams seeded 1-16. The 1 seed gets to pick their spot in the bracket, followed by the 2 seed, and so on until the 16th seed fills the final spot on the bracket and your first round matchups are set. This makes regular season wins, strength of schedule, etc mean something.

    The other option would be to have a rotating head coach from each region seed the teams regardless of whether or not their team was in it that year.

    Personally, I like the first option.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjs4470 View Post
    Again, it’s not rocket science. I’ve run a wrestling tournament for the last 5 years with 250 wrestlers from 3 states. I can seed 15 weight classes full of kids, many of which I’ve never seen, some I’ve never even heard of, with 90% accuracy with 2 or 3 pieces of criteria. Is it really that hard to seed 16 baseball or basketball teams? Remember it doesn’t need to be perfect. It’s not that big of deal if you mix up 1 and 3, or 4 and 6. Upsets, and Cinderella runs will still happen. It’s just silly to me that teams play 30+ games every season, and 90% of them mean nothing.
    So by your logic, you’re ok with messing up seeding as long as it’s done the way you want it.

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