What is the big deal with private schools and tuition?

Page 3 of Originally Posted by All Play No Work Fastbreak, Your thoughts and points have me wondering this: Let's say a Private school had 5 full tuition scholar... 87 comments | 3589 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    Close the schools and let's find out. But, since that is so unrealistic it does not warrant debate it is actually silly. Does the comment "shallow threat" mean anything? Because that is exactly what this is and has no merit. But, if you find comfort in coming up with fantasy set of circumstances, go right ahead.
    Seriously what does happen?

    Not in the closing of all private schools but what would happen if say a private school of 200 went out of business and the 200 students joined 300 at a public high school. If the public school go not fit them in the building or if they had to hire more teachers is there some way to get money for that other than from the people in that county?
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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam
    The reason tuition is brought up is because it has a clear and calculatable monetary value. Getting free tuition would essentially be worth X amount of dollars. This means that if an athlete were given tuition due to his ability on the feild, the school giving the tuition is in a round about way paying that athlete X amount of dollars.
    I'm really trying to follow you here, but the converse of this logic would be something along the lines of...

    "Since every public school athlete is provided free tuition by the state, the school and state giving the tuition is in a round about way paying that athlete X amount of dollars for his public school education. This is not a violation of KHSAA rules, whereas a student athlete receiving free tuition from a private school can in most circumstances be considered a violation, therefore it may be assumed that the KHSAA considers a private school education to have measurable value, and a public school education to be essentially worthless."

    I know that's not what you mean, but either public and private tuition should be considered of equal merit, or the educational value of each must be significantly different.
    Last edited by Fastbreak; Oct 25, 05 at 10:29 PM.

  3. #33
    Frances Bavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastbreak
    ... but either public and private tuition should be considered of equal merit, or the educational value of each must be significantly different.
    I would call this a non-sequitur of the first degree. A public education is mandated (although, it is anything but free) by the will of the people, while the cost of a private education is a choice made by a small percentage of the electorate. Regardless of why (or how) the funds are raised to pay for them, the value of either of these educations has a varied relationship to the money spent. The value of the respective educations varies greatly, in both the private and public sector, and the tuition paid for private educations covers a considerable span.

    I have no idea what it costs to send a child to Rose Hill for a year, but the tuition for one year at KCD is $14,000. Let me say that agian - $14,000. It would take a considerable payoff for that type of investment to be considered a "value". I picked KCD for two very good reasons - the high cost of an education there (approximately $170,000 if your child attended from 1st grade through his Senior year), and the fact that they have an absolutely incredible record of not only the percentage of graduates that attend a four year college, but the colleges that they then are accepted to. On a side note - can you imagine sending four siblings to KCD for their entire education? I don't have enough organs to sell ...

    To compare that record (or "value") to 99% of public schools would be an exercise in futility. The same would be true if we compared them to the private sector.

    On the other hand, there are private schools that charge much, much less tuition, and have a much lower level of success (as measured above).

    The same is true of public schools, with one exception - it costs nothing to attend the public schools (incidental costs notwithstanding). The state pays for the public schools through taxes it has levied, but the taxes paid are distributed over the entire population - not taken directly from the pocket of the family of the student.

    Thanks,
    Frances

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Play No Work
    Seriously what does happen?

    Not in the closing of all private schools but what would happen if say a private school of 200 went out of business and the 200 students joined 300 at a public high school. If the public school go not fit them in the building or if they had to hire more teachers is there some way to get money for that other than from the people in that county?
    There have been cases before and the construction logistics is a temporary matter. However, there is an entire industry that deals with classroom needs that are on demand. That is really the one big issue and it is not that big an issue. Teachers? Well, what about those already unemployed by the closing, plus there are many people looking to become teachers, as of now.

    For the sake of making the point clear and how this is not that fearful of an event, however unlikely. Please note: Take NorKY for instance. Total student population for public schools is just over 50,000 students in the three counties. The total population of private schools is just over 11,000. If such closing occured, it is a 23% gain to public school demand. That is very large but not overbearing. Keep in mind Boone County has been dealing with 5 to 10% every year. And, many of the schools have some capacity already in the building, not much but there is a fair number.

    But, as I said before in a prior post, this is very much a shallow issue and very much an empty threat. Certainly, not a case in point to make one's point in support for private schools.

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    How many public schools charge fees to at the beginning of the school year? It is becoming more and more common. My nephew attends a public school and he had to pay over 200 dollars in book fees, tech fees and so forth. In addition he has to pay a small fee to participate in a sport of his choice.For my daughter, in elementary school we had to pay 42 dollars. Not that big of a deal.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the public schools get roughly $34 a day for each day that student attends a full day of school. Am I correct in this? So if that child would have perfect attendance the school district would receive roughly $6,100.

  6. #36
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    This is a good topic that is what thing I have not understood.

    How is financial aid that big of deal. I know of not one student who attends at Catholic school who has all their schooling paid for. Also on top of tution they also must pay fee's for books and what not. At most catholic High School's there is a fee just to graduate.

    There is no way that financial aid in any shape or form is an advantage against a school who only has to charge their student's around 200 bucks for books. I don't see how tution cost isn't soley in the public corner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frances Bavier
    I would call this a non-sequitur of the first degree.
    I love your passion.

    The true non-sequitur IMO is the failure to get our eyes off of the price and to focus upon the actual service rendered. Focusing on the price merely leads us into a tautology.

    In this regard, you can go to Ponderosa and order a T—bone steak for nine bucks, or you can go to Ruth’s Chris and order a T-bone for forty bucks. They’re both the same cut of meat, from the same critter, with the same caloric and nutrient content per ounce. Depending upon how they’re cooked, they even taste pretty much the same. One will not fuel your body any better than the other. For all intents and purposes, they’re the same thing. What is it that makes one more valuable than the other? (Besides the obvious fact that Ruth gets thirty bucks more for hers.)

    If private schools deliver essentially the same product in terms of curriculum and test scores as public schools, why is it that the service they provide is attributed a value above that of the public schools.

    I am not in any way against public schools. I am the product of public schools and a public university. I have children in both public and private schools.

    I am simply trying to get at the essence of what it is—besides the obvious price tag—that a private school offers that makes it more of an inducement in the eyes of the KHSAA than what the publics offer.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    Close the schools and let's find out. But, since that is so unrealistic it does not warrant debate it is actually silly. Does the comment "shallow threat" mean anything? Because that is exactly what this is and has no merit. But, if you find comfort in coming up with fantasy set of circumstances, go right ahead.
    I'm coming up with fantasies? How about this. The public school system in Kentucky is one othe worst in the country yet you would have us turn even more students over to you and somehow that would improve the situation. What really needs to happen is a voucher system that would give parents some real choice and force the public schools to compete. Then we would see some improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSURock
    I'm coming up with fantasies? How about this. The public school system in Kentucky is one othe worst in the country yet you would have us turn even more students over to you and somehow that would improve the situation. What really needs to happen is a voucher system that would give parents some real choice and force the public schools to compete. Then we would see some improvement.
    It was only a matter of time before the hidden agenda became clear!

    Tell you what LSURock, you want vouchers, fine. As soon as the private receiving schools agree to accept ALL the parameters of operation the public schools must do, that is fine. That goes from NCLB to everything else. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    It was only a matter of time before the hidden agenda became clear!

    Tell you what LSURock, you want vouchers, fine. As soon as the private receiving schools agree to accept ALL the parameters of operation the public schools must do, that is fine. That goes from NCLB to everything else. You do not have a clue what you are talking about.
    It just comes down to the fact that you think the government is the one and only answer and I don't. I'm sure if the private sector had half of he funds that the government has to provide education it would improve. You are a socialist and don't agree, thats fair. You will be on the wrong side of history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverShadow
    There have been cases before and the construction logistics is a temporary matter. However, there is an entire industry that deals with classroom needs that are on demand. That is really the one big issue and it is not that big an issue. Teachers? Well, what about those already unemployed by the closing, plus there are many people looking to become teachers, as of now.

    For the sake of making the point clear and how this is not that fearful of an event, however unlikely. Please note: Take NorKY for instance. Total student population for public schools is just over 50,000 students in the three counties. The total population of private schools is just over 11,000. If such closing occured, it is a 23% gain to public school demand. That is very large but not overbearing. Keep in mind Boone County has been dealing with 5 to 10% every year. And, many of the schools have some capacity already in the building, not much but there is a fair number.

    But, as I said before in a prior post, this is very much a shallow issue and very much an empty threat. Certainly, not a case in point to make one's point in support for private schools.
    I understand it is "do-able" but where would the money come from to get temporary classrooms and to hire the extra teachers. Even in the best case plan like NKY where there are way too many schools and some extra capacity at schools a 23% gain could be managed but there would be some cost.

    Is there an "emergency fund" for such things, would the money come from other budgets of the state, or would the taxpayers be expected to pay?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastbreak
    I'm really trying to follow you here, but the converse of this logic would be something along the lines of...

    "Since every public school athlete is provided free tuition by the state, the school and state giving the tuition is in a round about way paying that athlete X amount of dollars for his public school education. This is not a violation of KHSAA rules, whereas a student athlete receiving free tuition from a private school can in most circumstances be considered a violation, therefore it may be assumed that the KHSAA considers a private school education to have measurable value, and a public school education to be essentially worthless."

    I know that's not what you mean, but either public and private tuition should be considered of equal merit, or the educational value of each must be significantly different.
    I understand the point you are making. There is still the monetary difference in that if I don't have X dollars I can't normally attend a private school, the same isn't true for the publics.
    Yes public educations have a value (a quite significant one) but so long as it is required for students to attend the monetary value will always be seen as 0.

    If you would just imagine the following scenario.... You come up to a peach stand with two sets of peaches. One set of peaches are free, the other have a 50 cent price sign on them. In the free stand there are many more peaches and for every good one there is a bad one, it is a mixed set. In the Fifty cent peach stand almost all of the peaches are of good quality. Imagine the vendor goes up to you and says "Hey son, If pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time, I'll let you have any peach you want for free"

    My question to you is which peach stand would pick your peach out of(assuming you pat head and rub your stomach)?
    I would be willing to bet everyone would go to the 50 cent peach stand. Even if we all know that a good peach out of the free stand is just as valuable as a good peach out of the 50 cent stand. The perception will always be that by taking a 50 cent peach you have gained more than a free peach.

    Now getting back to the rules of KHSAA, tuition is simply one more carrot (due to the monetary value) that a private school can offerer to entice a athelete to play for them. The wrong of the situation isn't that a student would be given tuition but is rather that a student would be given ANY preferential treatment becuase he/she is an athlete. Publics CAN illegaly offer preferential treatment to athletes, but nothing they have to offer, short of a booster actually paying an 8th grader money, is worth any monetary value that wouldn't otherwise be normally accessible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam
    I understand the point you are making. There is still the monetary difference in that if I don't have X dollars I can't normally attend a private school, the same isn't true for the publics.
    Yes public educations have a value (a quite significant one) but so long as it is required for students to attend the monetary value will always be seen as 0.

    If you would just imagine the following scenario.... You come up to a peach stand with two sets of peaches. One set of peaches are free, the other have a 50 cent price sign on them. In the free stand there are many more peaches and for every good one there is a bad one, it is a mixed set. In the Fifty cent peach stand almost all of the peaches are of good quality. Imagine the vendor goes up to you and says "Hey son, If pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time, I'll let you have any peach you want for free"

    My question to you is which peach stand would pick your peach out of(assuming you pat head and rub your stomach)?
    I would be willing to bet everyone would go to the 50 cent peach stand. Even if we all know that a good peach out of the free stand is just as valuable as a good peach out of the 50 cent stand. The perception will always be that by taking a 50 cent peach you have gained more than a free peach.

    Now getting back to the rules of KHSAA, tuition is simply one more carrot (due to the monetary value) that a private school can offerer to entice a athelete to play for them. The wrong of the situation isn't that a student would be given tuition but is rather that a student would be given ANY preferential treatment becuase he/she is an athlete. Publics CAN illegaly offer preferential treatment to athletes, but nothing they have to offer, short of a booster actually paying an 8th grader money, is worth any monetary value that wouldn't otherwise be normally accessible.
    Very good points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSURock
    It just comes down to the fact that you think the government is the one and only answer and I don't. I'm sure if the private sector had half of he funds that the government has to provide education it would improve. You are a socialist and don't agree, thats fair. You will be on the wrong side of history.

    So, you really do not want a voucher program or not? Or is this simply a case of having your cake and eating it to? Which is it.

    So far you have argued to close the private schools to prove some "point", then you said to keep such schools open and let them have "vouchers", now you claim education would improve if private schools got "half" of the funds.

    To your last point, at least in NorKY the tuition charged by private schools is way more than half of what most of the public schools receive. More along the lines of 75% to 80% and that is without providing many programs. So are you now saying the private schools are currently overcharging? And if all the public schools quit how would the private schools build all these new classrooms and hire all these new teachers. Please, show us the way.
    Last edited by SilverShadow; Oct 26, 05 at 08:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by All Play No Work
    I understand it is "do-able" but where would the money come from to get temporary classrooms and to hire the extra teachers. Even in the best case plan like NKY where there are way too many schools and some extra capacity at schools a 23% gain could be managed but there would be some cost.

    Is there an "emergency fund" for such things, would the money come from other budgets of the state, or would the taxpayers be expected to pay?
    There is a contingency in every school district and the state. There is no case history of this to happen. However, we can look to recent events in the Gulf region and see the federal programs were temporary changed and allowing funding to flow into teacher hiring, assets, etc. The construction part is probably insurance. That is the only realistic case to reference.

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