Trayvon Martin case? More about justice or race?

Page 4 of Originally Posted by woodsrider What evidence? The only evidence they had was Zimmerman's story and an eye witness that saw half of what happened. And ... 185 comments | 5798 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #46
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    FC, so it's typical behavior of those not looking for trouble to refer to young African Americans as "coons"?
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by True blue (and gold) View Post
    Why do you keep repeating that Martin attacked Zimmerman? This is not a fact.

    You also mention that if Zimmerman was in fear of his life that he had a right to use deadly force. You seem to ignore that fact that Martin may have felt that he was in fear of his life. If so, can he not defend himself?

    I don't know which scenario is true. I do know that Zimmerman is the one that initiated the whole sequence of events that lead to the death of kid armed with Skittles and tea.
    Because it is part of the official police report. Yes, it is Zimmerman’s statement, but his injuries would indicate he was attacked.

    If someone hit me and then was on top of me slamming my head against the ground, I would probably fear for my life and if I had a gun I guarantee I would use it.

    One point we can agree on is I don’t know the whole truth either, but there seems to be a lot more to this case than the sensational media headlines of “white man kills unarmed black kid” indicates. I’m willing to let the investigation takes its course before hanging Zimmerman in the public square, which is what some seem to want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKMustangFan View Post
    FC, so it's typical behavior of those not looking for trouble to refer to young African Americans as "coons"?
    Of course not. If that is what he said, then I'll change my position. However, the recording is far from conclusive. Even experts can’t seem to agree on what he said. People believe what they want to believe or what they have preconceived perceptions to believe. I’m not convinced that’s what he said on the recording.

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    ^Have you listened to the recording? It seems pretty clear to me. And I had no idea he said it when I first listened to the tape. Heard it clear as day the first time I listened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mexitucky View Post
    We have no facts. We have witness accounts, that start only w/ the scream. This is a he said/she said. There is no rule perhaps about following someone. However, if you follow someone, you put that person on alert that they may need to protect themselves. I don't know who did what, but when a guy calls 911 and is directed NOT to exit his vehicle, then disregards that after mentioning the term "Coon," those facts tend to make me believe that he was looking to confront Martin. As I asked previously, what would you have done?

    You are giving Zimmerman's role as a neighborhood watch guy way too much respect and credence. By the way, how do you know who attacked who?
    If there were a rash of burglaries in my cul-de-sac and I observed someone suspicious, I would probably call the police. If I did decide to follow them and the police told me not to get out of my vehicle, I would likely do what the police told me to do. However, even if for whatever reason I exited my vehicle and someone attacked me, assuming that is what happened, and I had a weapon, I would use deadly force if in fact I felt my life was endanger.

    Not respect, but motivation. It is reasonable to assume that he was motivated to follow Trayvon because he was part of the neighborhood watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKMustangFan View Post
    ^Have you listened to the recording? It seems pretty clear to me. And I had no idea he said it when I first listened to the tape. Heard it clear as day the first time I listened.
    Yes I have and the section of the recording that allegedly contains the racial slur is muffled and unclear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FC View Post
    If there were a rash of burglaries in my cul-de-sac and I observed someone suspicious, I would probably call the police. If I did decide to follow them and the police told me not to get out of my vehicle, I would likely do what the police told me to do. However, even if for whatever reason I exited my vehicle and someone attacked me, assuming that is what happened, and I had a weapon, I would use deadly force if in fact I felt my life was endanger.

    Not respect, but motivation. It is reasonable to assume that he was motivated to follow Trayvon because he was part of the neighborhood watch.
    Correct, but you haven't put yourself in the position of the teenager that was with his Dad visiting his Dad's fiance. He'd gone to the store to get skittles and an iced tea. Now some guy is tailing him in a car and has just gotten out to either follow him or confront him. How do you react?

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    How about saying "I'm visiting my Dad and went to the store to buy some skittles"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mexitucky View Post
    We have no facts. We have witness accounts, that start only w/ the scream. This is a he said/she said. There is no rule perhaps about following someone. However, if you follow someone, you put that person on alert that they may need to protect themselves. I don't know who did what, but when a guy calls 911 and is directed NOT to exit his vehicle, then disregards that after mentioning the term "Coon," those facts tend to make me believe that he was looking to confront Martin. As I asked previously, what would you have done?

    You are giving Zimmerman's role as a neighborhood watch guy way too much respect and credence. By the way, how do you know who attacked who?
    Yet there are a whole lot of people that have already made their minds up on this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherneck View Post
    Yet there are a whole lot of people that have already made their minds up on this matter.
    I agree and you might be referring to me, which is fine, but know that I haven’t made my mind up. I do however, think that the initial media portrayal of Zimmerman and Trayvon was tilted in one direction and that significantly affected public opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherneck View Post
    Yet there are a whole lot of people that have already made their minds up on this matter.
    What people have made their mind up on is not that Zimmerman is guilty but that he should have been arrested and questioned more thoroughly, tested for drugs and alcohol and real police investigation should have taken place. Even the lead detective said he should be arrested. States attorney said not enough evidence based on the stand your ground law, authors of the law say this was not the intent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FC View Post
    Because it is part of the official police report. Yes, it is Zimmerman’s statement, but his injuries would indicate he was attacked.

    If someone hit me and then was on top of me slamming my head against the ground, I would probably fear for my life and if I had a gun I guarantee I would use it.

    One point we can agree on is I don’t know the whole truth either, but there seems to be a lot more to this case than the sensational media headlines of “white man kills unarmed black kid” indicates. I’m willing to let the investigation takes its course before hanging Zimmerman in the public square, which is what some seem to want.
    His injuries are consistent with having been in a physical altercation, not that he was attacked. Just because he suffered more injuries (well, minus the bullet wound) does not reveal who threw the first punch or who was the aggressor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acemona View Post
    What people have made their mind up on is not that Zimmerman is guilty but that he should have been arrested and questioned more thoroughly, tested for drugs and alcohol and real police investigation should have taken place. Even the lead detective said he should be arrested. States attorney said not enough evidence based on the stand your ground law, authors of the law say this was not the intent.
    Sure seems to me that there are plenty of folks and plenty of newspaper articles that indicate they've concluded that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter or murder; or that Zimmerman was wrong for approaching Martin to begin with. But perhaps you are right and I'm mistaken. Maybe the only conclusion that has been made is that the investigation wasn't thorough enough. Maybe none of the people attending the rallys have already come to the conclusion that Zimmerman murdered Martin. Maybe Messrs. Sharpeton and Jackson haven't made up their minds on that issue yet either. Or the New Black Panthers either.

    Did Zimmerman use poor judgment getting out of his car instead of waiting for the police? Maybe he did, although didn't we just have a thread in some forum complaining about the poor/long response time by police? Do we know if Zimmerman had experienced similar poor response times from the police? If there are unsolved burglaries in the neighborhood, do you let a possible suspect possibly just walk away while you sit in your car and wait for the police? Given that Zimmerman supposedly said something to the effect of "These A**holes always get away" is it possible that he's reported suspicious people to the police in the past and the police didn't respond in time? Might that have played a role in why he got out of the car and evidently approached Martin?

    The 16 year old friend of Martin that he was talking to on the phone before the altercation allegedly said that once Martin realized Zimmerman was watching him, he pulled up his hoodie and walked fast to get away from Zimmerman. If that's true, that doesn't make him more suspicious to a person looking for suspicious people in the neighborhood? Mex raises a fair question that I don't think has been fully answered: what authority does a community watch person have? Although I did find this info in an article: "Zimmerman violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned. The manual from the Neighborhood Watch program states: 'It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.'" If accurate Zimmerman clearly violated the manual concerning carrying a weapon.

    Does walking up to someone and asking them who they are and what they are doing in the neighborhood constitute the exercise of police powers? Do we conclusively know what transpired between Martin and Zimmerman? Will we ever know? If your neighborhood had been burglarized recently and you saw someone that you thought was suspicious in the neighborhood (particularly after they pulled up their hoodie in a possible attempt to conceal their identity and walked fast to get away from you), wouldn't you approach that person and ask them what they were doing and who they were? I know I would. Personally I don't find that behavior, IF that's what happened, all that unusual. If I did approach a person to ask who they were and what they were doing in my neighborhood and that person proceeded to punch me in the face and then slam my head into the ground, I'd probably shoot him or her. Folks get killed by bare hands every day folks. I'm not saying that's what transpired between Martin and Zimmerman. I can't. Likewise from what I've read, folks can't say it didn't happen that way.

    If you are correct in asserting that the investigation was done poorly, how can you conclude that he should have been arrested? If the investigatin was done so poorly, how can the lead detective conclude that Zimmerman should have been arrested? Aren't US citizens only subject to arrest after the govt has concluded that there is probable cause to believe that the person committed a crime? Maybe I've missed them, but what facts, hard facts, are there to conclude that there was probable cause to arrest Zimmerman? The fact that a young man was shot? That's not probable cause to arrest someone. It's a reason for an investigation but not probable cause for an arrest. If the investigation was done as poorly as suggested, how could the govt have probable cause to believe a crime was committed? Take him in for questioning, I'll agree with you. That should have been done if the police were not satisfied with what they observed and heard at the scene. But so far I'm not convinced that I've seen or read of any evidence concluding that there is probable cause that a crime was committed by Zimmerman and I'm a former prosecutor for goodness sakes (other than perhaps the crime of having a weapon on him and I think I've read that he had a carry concealed permit, and even if he didn't have a permit, is there any evidence that the police or anyone else observed him carrying the weapon in a concealed manner?)

    Look, I'm not saying Zimmerman did commit a crime or didn't commit a crime, so don't interpret this post as a defense of Zimmerman. It is not, other than perhaps of the fact that I'd have probably approached Martin myself if I had been in that situation. I've got zero clue at this point whether Zimmerman murdered Martin. But I've practiced law long enough (including time as a prosecutor) to know that rarely are all the facts known or disclosed to the public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mexitucky View Post
    Right, but what was the scope of Zimmerman's authority? Did he have a right to tail the kid and stop him? What exactly is a neighborhood watch guy allowed to do? If a policeman were to stop you on the street, he would have to have probable cause that criminal activity was afoot. He would only be able to stop you, pat down your outer clothing, and that would be in. If he did that, he would have to show that his experience as a police officer had led him to a reasonable suspicion. Did Zimmerman have that authority? He certainly didn't have that experience. Unless neighborhood watch members have the authority to act under the color of law, this guy overstepped his bounds. Further, he never told the kid who he was, or why he was following him. Rather, he tailed a kid through a neighborhood, got out of the car in the dark, and approached a complete stranger. What would you have done?
    How do we know for sure that Zimmerman approached Trayvon? Didn't he say he got out to see what street he was on?

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    Seems like Trayvon is being put into a new light.

    Got caught with pot residu.
    Got caught with flathead screwdriver and women's jewlery
    Vandalizing lockers with graffitii

    Plus show us an updated photo of him not one of him when he was like 12 or 13 yrs old.
    Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

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