Tennessee recruiting case goes to high court

Interesting article.

Tennessee recruiting case goes to high court

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court agreed yesterday to referee a high school sports dispute over whether coaches have a free-speech right to recruit athletes from other schools.

Last year, a federal appeals court threw out a $3,000 fine and two-year suspension given to a Tennessee high school football powerhouse whose coach was accused of violating the state's anti-recruiting rule, which is similar to other regulations around the United States.

Coach Carlton Flatt of the private Brentwood Academy had sent letters and made phone calls to a dozen eighth-grade boys inviting them to spring practice at his school near Nashville. After the state high school athletic association handed down its punishment, the Academy sued in federal court alleging a violation of the First Amendment.

In a long-running legal battle, a federal judge as well as the appeals court sided with Brentwood Academy and said the coach's letters and calls were protected as free speech.

This could be good. If the school has won in the US District Court and in the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, its chances of winning before the Supreme Court are good. By the way, the present status of the case is significant for Kentucky since Kentucky is also a part of the Sixth Circuit. It might be a good time for a private school to "test" the KHSAA.

Wow, what a huge mess this would become in the world of HS athletics. Any blatant recruiting occurs like this and I will say that the public/private split gathers more steam.

My question is if the calls and mailings were a part of an overall recruitment by the school (something similar to an open house that private schools in KY use by advertising a holistic experience of thier school, which include athletics, academics, band, ect.) If it was specific to football, and did not include the entire school experience, I am against it. It opens up too big a can of worms, and in my opinion will hurt not only the state of high school sports in KY, but other aspects of our public and private school systems.

Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach

Wow, what a huge mess this would become in the world of HS athletics. Any blatant recruiting occurs like this and I will say that the public/private split gathers more steam.

Of course, if a split took place and if the present rule that KHSAA members cannot play an in state school that is not a member of the KHSAA remained, there might well be a good question as to the constitutionality of that rule.
I would think the 14th Amendment would be a reasonably good place to start.

The fact that the 6th Circuit has upheld the school is very significant to schools in Kentucky. It could get interesting and I would hope the sooner the better.

Originally Posted by Covercorner

My question is if the calls and mailings were a part of an overall recruitment by the school (something similar to an open house that private schools in KY use by advertising a holistic experience of thier school, which include athletics, academics, band, ect.) If it was specific to football, and did not include the entire school experience, I am against it. It opens up too big a can of worms, and in my opinion will hurt not only the state of high school sports in KY, but other aspects of our public and private school systems.

Don't you imagine that any mailings cover the whole spectrum of the school? Like it or not, the school, as court decisions to date indicate, has a good argument. I tip my hat to the attorneys who came up with this approach. It looks good and it certainly should send shock waves through Kentucky.

Originally Posted by scooterbob

Don't you imagine that any mailings cover the whole spectrum of the school? Like it or not, the school, as court decisions to date indicate, has a good argument. I tip my hat to the attorneys who came up with this approach. It looks good and it certainly should send shock waves through Kentucky.

Coach Carlton Flatt of the private Brentwood Academy had sent letters and made phone calls to a dozen eighth-grade boys inviting them to spring practice at his school near Nashville.

From the statement above in the article, sure doesn't sound like it covered the whole spectrum of the school but was limited to 12 8th grade boys who happened to be very good in football.

I had stated before that I think the simplest solution is to split into two basic classes. THose with open enrollment and you can pull from anywhere. THose with closed enrollment. Schools would have the choice on whether to draw from a specified area or not. Further you would break that down by school size. Have an open enrollment with two different classes based on size. Have a closed enrollment with two different classes based on size.

I'm with the split. Then they can recruit each other to death? How would your program though?? Would not hurt mine, nobody would come knocking I would imagine. But the one time they did, it would destroy my program.

Apparently, to date, the courts have found whatever Coach Flatt is doing to be constitutional and Tennessee's actions to be otherwise. Also, we need to remember that most "recruiting" is done by competing publics rather than the oft-condemned privates. If we assume that 80 percent of the schools are public schools, then it is certainly a conservative estimate to state that 80 percent of recruiting is done by the publics. That is certainly the case in this area of Kentucky.

When you are a member of an association such as the KHSAA, aren't you then bound to their rules? Since the school chose to be in the state highschool sports association how could this be?

Originally Posted by oldonetechnique

When you are a member of an association such as the KHSAA, aren't you then bound to their rules? Since the school chose to be in the state highschool sports association how could this be?

The association chose to segregate them now they are choosing to exercise their rights. If the publics continue to push for a split I can easilly see the KY private schools exercising their rights here as well.

Originally Posted by All Tell

The association chose to segregate them now they are choosing to exercise their rights. If the publics continue to push for a split I can easilly see the KY private schools exercising their rights here as well.

I had forgotten that TN split at private/public and that changes my mind. With the split all of the schools in the same class can do this, I have no problem with it.

Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach

I had forgotten that TN split at private/public and that changes my mind. With the split all of the schools in the same class can do this, I have no problem with it.

I had forgotton that TN split as well. According to this, I also think that Brentwood is within thier rights. I also think KY should study this decision very carefully and decide a couse of action that will keep anything like this from reaching the courts.

Originally Posted by scooterbob

Don't you imagine that any mailings cover the whole spectrum of the school? Like it or not, the school, as court decisions to date indicate, has a good argument. I tip my hat to the attorneys who came up with this approach. It looks good and it certainly should send shock waves through Kentucky.

Be careful. Note that this one has already been to the high court once (google it and read). Basically, in the last one, TSSAA was a winner, Brentwood was a winner, and many other issues were unresolved. But the original 6th circuit decision was so fraught with errors, it was sent back by the high court to allow the circuit a "do over". Now, they have reached the same conclusions with the same facts. Anxious to see what the new court has to say about it. With the new justices in place, you just never know.

Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach

Wow, what a huge mess this would become in the world of HS athletics. Any blatant recruiting occurs like this and I will say that the public/private split gathers more steam.

Again, this split discussion could fall into the "be careful what you ask for" catagory? For those who think the "haves" are strong now, just separate them and allow them to openly recruit, offer scholarships, etc. Where do you think "little Johnny" the star running back with collegiate aspirations is going to attend high school then--XYZ Academy playing a national schedule, on ESPN, shoe company sponsored, whose games are attended by all the "name" college recruiters; or good old County HS, who's playing another County HS for a watered down, who knows how many classes by then, state title??

Originally Posted by BGGreen

Again, this split discussion could fall into the "be careful what you ask for" catagory? For those who think the "haves" are strong now, just separate them and allow them to openly recruit, offer scholarships, etc. Where do you think "little Johnny" the star running back with collegiate aspirations is going to attend high school then--XYZ Academy playing a national schedule, on ESPN, shoe company sponsored, whose games are attended by all the "name" college recruiters; or good old County HS, who's playing another County HS for a watered down, who knows how many classes by then, state title??

Excellent post.

Originally Posted by BGGreen

Again, this split discussion could fall into the "be careful what you ask for" catagory? For those who think the "haves" are strong now, just separate them and allow them to openly recruit, offer scholarships, etc. Where do you think "little Johnny" the star running back with collegiate aspirations is going to attend high school then--XYZ Academy playing a national schedule, on ESPN, shoe company sponsored, whose games are attended by all the "name" college recruiters; or good old County HS, who's playing another County HS for a watered down, who knows how many classes by then, state title??

You obviously haven't been paying attention to my position. I am fine with that as long as we have distinctly different classes so that we compete against like schools. Presently, that does not occur. You have schools that have closed enrollment, you have schools that have open enrollment but because they are rural doesn't really draw anyone, you have schools that recruit, you have schools that draw from 10-13 county area, you have schools that are 60 students big and schools that are 2000 big and except in 3 sports they all are expected to compete against each other.

I have said, create an open enrollment/private class with 2 different size breakdowns and let them go at it. And then have a closed enrollment with 2 different size breakdowns and let them go at it.

And on the tired, worn-out Chicken Little argument of watering down, I am sure that the kids of those County schools will wear their state championship jackets just as proudly, the parade and pep rally in the school gym will be just as loud, the school will hang that banner in the rafters just as proudly as any that they have no chance to compete for now.

Originally Posted by ladiesbballcoach

You obviously haven't been paying attention to my position. I am fine with that as long as we have distinctly different classes so that we compete against like schools. Presently, that does not occur. You have schools that have closed enrollment, you have schools that have open enrollment but because they are rural doesn't really draw anyone, you have schools that recruit, you have schools that draw from 10-13 county area, you have schools that are 60 students big and schools that are 2000 big and except in 3 sports they all are expected to compete against each other.

I have said, create an open enrollment/private class with 2 different size breakdowns and let them go at it. And then have a closed enrollment with 2 different size breakdowns and let them go at it.

And on the tired, worn-out Chicken Little argument of watering down, I am sure that the kids of those County schools will wear their state championship jackets just as proudly, the parade and pep rally in the school gym will be just as loud, the school will hang that banner in the rafters just as proudly as any that they have no chance to compete for now.

So you really think the 60 student rural public school will be able to compete with it's city or big county rival in a two class (closed enrollment) scenerio?? My guess is the cutoff for the two (closed enrollment) groups would be in the 700-800 student range. Thus you'll have the upper class ranging from say 750 student schools to 2100 or thereabouts, and the smaller class ranging from your 60 student school to 750.

Trust me, soon many will be whinning for more classes so "60 student HS" can compete "Fairly" against similar sized institutions; and likewise "750 student HS" will be saying the 2100 student school has a huge advantage, which they obviously do!! Meanwhile the smaller privates, which comprize most of the private schools in the state; can't compete with the handful of larger institutions, and will be forced to travel very long distances to find a similar private school to compete with. They will be forced to ultimately drop many athletic programs due to budgetary concerns, or merge and create a couple more monsters. I'd like the chances of a merged "NKY Catholic High School" made up of St. Henry, CovCath, Holy Cross, Bishop Brossart, NewCath, etc. competing on a regional level!!

Is this really what you want so that a couple of huge Louisville schools don't win a 6A football championship every year??

Originally Posted by BGGreen

So you really think the 60 student rural public school will be able to compete with it's city or big county rival in a two class (closed enrollment) scenerio?? My guess is the cutoff for the two (closed enrollment) groups would be in the 700-800 student range. Thus you'll have the upper class ranging from say 750 student schools to 2100 or thereabouts, and the smaller class ranging from your 60 student school to 750.

Trust me, soon many will be whinning for more classes so "60 student HS" can compete "Fairly" against similar sized institutions; and likewise "750 student HS" will be saying the 2100 student school has a huge advantage, which they obviously do!! Meanwhile the smaller privates, which comprize most of the private schools in the state; can't compete with the handful of larger institutions, and will be forced to travel very long distances to find a similar private school to compete with. They will be forced to ultimately drop many athletic programs due to budgetary concerns, or merge and create a couple more monsters. I'd like the chances of a merged "NKY Catholic High School" made up of St. Henry, CovCath, Holy Cross, Bishop Brossart, NewCath, etc. competing on a regional level!!

Is this really what you want so that a couple of huge Louisville schools don't win a 6A football championship every year??

Honestly, I don't care what happens with the football championship at the 6A level every year.

I am looking at the other sports as much as just football.

I do like the chances of a non open enrollment/private school of 60 competing against a similar school in nature of 750 in comparison to the setup today.

Regular season compete against whom you wish. You want to go out of state, so be it. You want to bring in a Huntington High to play against, so be it. You want to compete against the private school or the public school, 3 miles away so be it.

No different than the NCAA's. If you are a DII school, a NAIA school, and a DI school will schedule you, so be it.

The small privates you mention would only do the traveling because OF THEIR CHOICE. St. Henry could still fill their regular season schedule by staying in the NKY/Cincy area and play whomever. The postseason would be the difference.

Originally Posted by All Tell

The association chose to segregate them now they are choosing to exercise their rights. If the publics continue to push for a split I can easilly see the KY private schools exercising their rights here as well.

Even if they are segregated they must pay or choose to be member of the association.