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Sep 27, 17, 01:55 PM #31I would also like to add that while I may come across as someone who views himself as being completely free of racist tendencies, I too must at times face my own shortcomings and admit to myself, though sometimes difficult, that I'm not perfect.
I realize too that while I try to be open minded and freely accepting toward black people, there can be some black folks for whatever reasons in their life, that can't stand the sight of me simply because I am white.
They don't know what's in my head, and I can feel strongly that they don't care. I'm white and to them I represent to them everyone that has ever treated them unfairly.
I've experienced within myself over compensating to express my open mindedness that I come off as a big white geek who is trying too hard, which can result in an unnatural uneasiness that might even have some thinking that I'm full of crap, ignorant, and fake as can be.
I'm forever monitoring myself with this, and just simply want to come across as one human speaking to another without any indication or evidence that race is the least bit on my mind, and want so much to get to where it truly isn't. Depending on the open mindedness of the company that I'm in, there thankfully have been many examples of times where it definitely isn't, and that's a beautiful thing to be apart of.
I grew up in a city with a demographic of rich, poor, middle class, white, black, and now more so hispanic, and while I feel that every human being deserves respect, I'm not completely stupid either, and while it may sound like I'm stereotyping, certain people no matter their race can come across as someone who it might be a good idea to avoid for having seen with my own two eyes too many incidences of not so wonderful outcomes.
Because I believe that no matter how damaged some people can be that there is hope for them, I've even tackled my fears head on, and purposely put myself in situations to have dialogue with those who maybe I shouldn't with hope that the exchange can even in some small way have a positive effect on both of us. Sometimes a hello and a smile can go along way in making someone else's day a better one if ordinarily no one dares ever speak to them because of the way they appear.
Though they tend to mind their own business and move about the grocery store appearing to hope to go unnoticed for fear of objection, I will purposely say hello and smile at Hispanics because I'm thinking that legal or not, they're now citizens here and they might as well feel welcome.
I have good days and bad, and sometimes just want to get in and out of the store and pay no attention to anyone, but I have a theory that the grocery store, since it's where everyone must shop, is a perfect place to try to establish positive interracial vibrations with the hopes that people can go home with a better impression of each other than when they left the house, and that if it makes someone feel happy to have been said "Hi" to that they might in turn say "Hi" to someone else, and so on and so on.
A few years ago I was eating at Lee's Chicken in Covington and the majority of those sitting around me were both white and black, and obviously closer to a street existence than I was. I accidentally left my book bag under a table (which is terribly out of character for me), and in it was my money and credit cards, license etc... and it wasn't until I got home that I realized that I didn't have it.
I went immediately into panic mode and visualized those in the dining area to have been long gone with my belongings. I drove like a bat out of hell back to the restaurant and jumped out of my car, and an employee on a smoke break said (because she obviously saw panic on my face) "Hey are you the one who left a bag?", and I'm like "Yes!', and she says, "Cool...someone turned it in and we've got it behind the counter".
Well the only people in the place were the same ones who were there when I had left, and though they didn't know what I had visualized, I felt like a complete fool to have prejudged them.
I went to their table and said "I just want want to thank whoever turned this bag in and let them know how much I appreciate it". No one said "Oh that was me", but collectively they all nodded and said, "Your Welcome".
I saved the receipt from that visit and placed it on my desk at home as a constant reminder that there are good people in this world, and that you just can't judge a book by its cover.
All in all what I'm trying to say is that while I try to be fair, I too can suffer from biases, and those biases can have me at times jumping to conclusions having me to remind myself that I'm not so perfect and self-righteous, and that there's always room for me to improve. From an early age I was exposed to both examples of fairness and racism and have no doubt that for better or for worse both have rubbed off on to me, and as I go throughout my life I'm forever doing self-monitoring with hopes that it's the better that prevail. I'd be lying if I said that they always do, but everyday is a new day to try again to get it right.Advertisement
Sep 27, 17, 02:01 PM #32
Sep 27, 17, 10:07 PM #33In the old days we had a saying that said, "Love it or Leave It"
That obviously needs to resurrected.
Players taking a knee are making a statement that they are bigger than the game and have no respect for the flag or country. It is a statement that they are being discriminated against.
I love my country and hate the government, but I will always stand for the National Anthem, and do my best to show respect for my freedoms and to those who made living in this free country possible.
Others, be they red, black, yellow, or green should do the same. If they are unhappy here, go find a better condition elsewhere.
IMO, Trump says nothing more that what the rest of us think.
It is why the "silent majority" elected him.
Sep 28, 17, 08:17 AM #34I have reread post #24 again. @B-Ball-fan and I do not know what you are trying to to say. It appears that you are saying Trump made racism legitimate again and that the majority of those who voted for him did so out of racist motivations.
This thread has wondered far away from what to do after "taking a knee" is stopped. How do we move forward? I would say that believing the worst about "the other side" needs to stop as well. Not one of the people who voted for Trump that I know are racists, not ONE. They voted for Trump because he was not a politician. They are tired of the same old fight among entrenched politicians who seem powerless to do anything that will actually help the country. "Drain the swamp" resonated with a lot of people. They felt the last administration used power to make changes that should have been debated and collaborated on. One example is ACA that forced people to buy a product (insurance) that they didn't want. It was done unilaterally by the Dems until at the very end when 8 months after the Dems worked on it they finally invited the Republicans to submit ideas to make what they already came up with better. Then it was passed by a parliamentary trick. Harry Reid used reconciliation that was not intended for major legislation but budget items. This allowed the Senate to pass the bill with 51 votes and not the usual required 60 (which it did not have). It was a dirty trick. And no, it isn't any better when Republicans try to return the favor.
Another example is executive orders that bypass the legislative branch. One place this was done by the President, and he admitted he did not have the power to do it but did it any way, was the dream act on illegal immigration.
This is government doing what it wants through inappropriate means because those in power think the people don't know what is best for them. So you have elitists acting against your will because they think they know best. The people who voted for Trump do not want our country to shift to a social democracy similar to those in Europe. They believe this is what Obama was working towards and didn't want a corrupt politician like Hillary continuing that trend. So there was a common Joe and Jane revolt at the polls. Americans saying we don't want a government so large it can do whatever it wants. This is the reason Trump was elected, even over superior conservative candidates who came from within congress. He was an outsider. A pragmatist who would get the job done. A job that had been promised by previous Republicans but who turned out to be only slightly less objectionable than the Dems. Maybe Trump would get the job done, was the thinking. So he was given the chance. You see, it had nothing to do with race for the vast majority of people who voted for Trump.
I state that here because it is important for moving forward. It has become all too easy to flash the race card. It comes out against conservatives when we simply voice a different view of the problem that therefore needs a different approach to solve it. If we disagree with the prevailing liberal academic point of view, we are accused of being a racist. It is an illegitimate use of the term. And it has the effect of "crying wolf." One example is when Alan Dershowitz, who was an ardent supporter of Hillary and a liberal law professor, was called a racist by Maxine Waters for pointing out that if Robert Mueller convened a jury from the Washington D.C. area its "ethnic and racial" composition would be less favorable to Trump. That is an accusation that is completely devoid of reason and understanding regarding what trial lawyers do when vetting a jury pool, especially when you consider at whom she leveled the accusation. It illustrates how misused the term "racist" has become. Using it in inappropriate ways will eventually render the term almost meaningless.
If there is a positive discussion to be had, it has to be about agreed upon facts and we have to stop assuming these false stereotypes about those who are on the opposite side of the debate. The debate should be about ideas and which represents the real problem and then what is the best way to address the real problem. For instance, if the police do not shoot innocent African-American males at a higher rate than other races and if the incidents that do occur are not motivated by racism, then taking a knee during the anthem to draw attention to this problem is not helpful. Rather, it is harmful because it stokes the fires of racial divide based on a false narrative, a narrative that gets people angry, perhaps angry enough to push a radical over the edge and begin shooting at white people, especially white police officers.
There is irony in all of this for me. The most racist person I know, a person who is prejudiced against blacks and Jews, speaks of them in vile stereotypical ways, actually voted for Hillary, voted for Barack Obama twice, and can't wait to vote Trump out of office at the first opportunity. And Republicans are routinely called racist by Democrat politicians and MSM. Don't believe the stereotypes.
Sep 28, 17, 09:17 AM #35^^^^
Good job but your wasting your time and energy typing it. People believe the agenda the media has etched into their brains. All I hear is white nationalist, white privilege, and Trump is a racist. Even white people hate being white now. Its all because Hillary lost and the Dems cant stand it.
Sep 28, 17, 09:17 AM #36
Please reread post #28 again, and I trust that you will see that I will likely just be repeating myself to now respond again to your post #34.
The following are some points that I didn't address in post #28 that I will now expand on for more clarity.
I read John Anthony's post #13 as alluding to Obama (while not specifically naming him) as having been one of the primary reasons for our current racial divide, and I was expanding that while racial tensions have indeed escalated as of late that it would be disingenuous to pin this on Obama, then I proceeded to refute the narrative with an alternative perspective that IMO has been falsely pushed to imply that Obama has done so, when in truth the complete opposite had been his mission and intent all the while, and how ridiculous it would be to take such a calm cool advocate for peace and try to paint him out to be the cause of racial tension. This would be similar IMO to pinning the same accusation on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
While it came across as a broad stroke, I concluded that those who despised Obama and everything he stood for, and along with the social "correctness" and acceptance that we as a nation were loosely but fastly becoming, that others felt threatened by it and wanted to follow Trump's lead to "Make America Great Again", which translated to some of his base as not giving into the progressiveness of the former administration, and taking the country back from the accepted diversity that it was becoming.
By discussing those who in my mind are no doubt racists, it came across to you and others that I was pinning all Trump supporters as racists, which was not my intent, but is how it came across. When focusing on his racist supporters I did not in my post exclude those who weren't which was interpreted as me thinking every Trump supporter was a racist.
While you are very accurate in that you and many others have a completely different take on Trump and your reasons to support him, my focus in my post was mostly aimed at discussing our racial divide and my impression of where it has been over the last 10 years, and how I don't completely agree with some others' assessment of all the reasons why.
You and many others may indeed be who you are and where you're at on all of this, but I still contend that there is a lot of truth behind my comments related to a significant portion of his base. I certainly can understand how it came across as to broadly brushed, and how if someone such as yourself doesn't fit what I have described, how you would feel compelled to say so, which you have, and I completely comprehend.
Hopefully this has made clear to you that which originally perhaps wasn't which prompted you to have me expand future regarding it.
Sep 28, 17, 10:56 AM #37^ Thanks for being patient with me and explaining yourself again. Your remarks are conciliatory and I welcome that. There are points in your response that I will agree to disagree with and would only be worth pursuing if you and i were in a bilateral discussion face to face rather than a forum where others may chime in on side points we make.
One thing I will correct is that I am not a Trump supporter--never was and still am not. HRC was a worse option, IMO, so I voted for neither. I do seek to keep the conversation honest when I think Trump is being misrepresented or unfairly attacked on issues that I view of some import.
Grace and peace to you, @B-Ball-fan.
Sep 28, 17, 02:03 PM #38
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Sep 28, 17, 09:59 PM #39^ So, is there evidence that demonstrates innocent African-American males are shot at a higher rate than other races thus indicating that police in general across the nation are indeed prejudiced against African-American males in a way that leads them to murder them when encountered? This is why Kap said he knelt during the national anthem.
If not, then Colin Kaepernick and all those who joined him since are protesting a problem that doesn't exist. If they are working to bring about change regarding an issue that does not exist it could have a detrimental effect. Divisiveness is the first detrimental effect. This has been the result so far. Another effect could be that they lead African-Americans to falsely believe they are being targeted. This creates an unnecessary conflict between LE and the black community. Furthermore, it fosters a dangerous atmosphere and some sicko may just get angry enough to start his own war on white people and especially white LEOs. It also could contribute to a sense of hopelessness among the black community because they think that there is nothing they can do. The deck is always stacked against them and that they cannot control their own future. I believe that to be false.
BTW, there is an answer to the question in my post. It has been studied. The statistics are known.
Kap's contention that bodies are lying in the streets and that racist police are getting away with murder is just not true. Just like it was not true that Michael Brown held up his hands in surrender and said, "Don't shoot." So while we're dealing with a false perception, the real issues that are detrimental to a large segment of our population are not receiving the attention they deserve. This is where the real tragedy lies. We cannot find solutions to the problems that have devastating effect on people's lives if we are addressing the wrong problem. This is why I care. We should use our energy, time, and resources to solve the problems that cause the most harm in the community and the police aren't it.
That is not to say that racism does not exist or that racism does not have a detrimental effect on the African-American community. It does say that what Kap contends is false and a non-issue, except to those involved in each individual case. It indicates that there are other issues that are more grave and are not getting the attention they deserve or rather that the people deserve who are most effected by those issues. You want to impact a community for good? Address those issues.
Sep 28, 17, 11:22 PM #40
Just what would that "magic number" be?
Secondly, it is terribly insensitive to the real concerns that people of all races have regarding a true issue with prejudice and racism that does indeed exist in this country and has never truly gone away, nor have we, (though there has been with some great strides), much ever as a country faced it head on with real efforts to improve it.
We sorta for awhile, previous to this current tension, have been somewhat quiet about it, and have just hoped that it would go away, but the underlying reality of it continues to rear its ugly head time and again.
Discrimination still exists, and while it does it's really not a good look for our country.
Whether or not the focus must completely be related to police shootings, and as challenging all of this has been for our country, I believe (while perhaps being optimistically idealistic) that the serious discussion that this country is now having is long overdue, and hopefully can ultimately have a much needed positive effect.
While there has always been tensions for generations, there has still been great social strides made on many fronts.
Obviously humanity keeps proving itself to be horrible as well as decent , and if history teaches us anything, it always will, but just because moving forward is hard is no reason not to try.
There are more and more people today of all races, whites included, that are right on board with coexisting and getting along with the hopes to finally put to bed the white supremacy that has prevailed for centuries.
For some whites this seems to be an attack on them, but what they need to know is that no one is trying to exclude white people from the "Everyone is welcome" conscious party.
If they could stop being paranoid about losing their "rights", they might be able to see that this type of resistance to understand is not at all helping race relations either, and let me be clear that not only white people can be racist, so we as a culture, though nothing can be solved overnight, could be on the threshold of making ever bigger strides with all races learning to listen, respect, and to come together.
This spirit already works with a huge amount of people in our culture, and all we're asking is for everyone to peacefully join us, and that there's room for everyone.
This discussion needs to be had, and this time in a seriously big and effective way. No more sweeping it under the rug.
Sep 29, 17, 06:41 AM #41B-B-Fan, it seems like you are changing the topic of this discussion. For over a week we’ve been lectured (not by you) that this isn’t about the flag or disrespect for the nation but about the topic raised by Kap and we therefore need to discuss that issue. Well, I am discussing that issue and do not think we should change the topic just yet. According to Kap, the issue for which he was protesting is that there are “bodies in the streets” and racist cops are getting away with murdering African-American males. Well, the studies I referred to demonstrate this claim to be false. There is no evidence supporting this claim. In fact, the statistics of people who are unjustly shot by the police show that white and Hispanic males are more likely to be unjustly shot by police than African-American males. And considering the huge number of encounters between the police and African-American males, the number who have been unjustly shot is quite low. I know, even one is too many but the facts demonstrate there simply is no problem with racist cops getting away with murdering African-American males. I am not looking for a magic number. The study shows that unarmed white and Hispanic males are more likely to be shot by the police than unarmed African-American males. Colin Kaepernick’s claim is simply false. This should be good news.
To ignore this monumental finding by simply moving on to another topic at this point does not do it justice. This story has not been swept under the rug, as you put it. It has been studied and shown to be false. The studies have found Kap’s assertion is not true yet the national discussion continues to assume that it is. We were told that Michael Brown was fatally shot by a police officer while he was meekly trying to surrender. That is completely false. We know it is false. To continue to repeat that version of the story or use the slogan “Hands up don’t shoot” is to perpetuate a lie. Now, there are at least two studies demonstrating the accusation that racist cops are killing African-American males and getting away with it is also false. To continue to repeat it when we know the truth is to purposely lie. To borrow your phrase, it is sweeping the facts under the rug.
For the national discussion to focus on this story without acknowledging that the evidence does not support the assertion is completely dishonest. The fact that people are still assuming that the assertion is true shows the power of the news media. They perpetuated these two false narratives and even when the truth comes out, people still discuss the issue and assume that the false story is true. This is completely dishonest and detrimental to the health of the nation. It is an example of the way in which the media manipulates the public. When the facts don’t fit its preferred perspective, it chooses not to report the truth. Instead of promoting racial reconciliation it creates racial tension where there wasn't any. It is clear that all those NFL athletes and owners, among others, are assuming Kap’s version of the story is correct. It is not. The media has a duty to straighten out the misconceptions concerning Michael Brown and whether the police are murdering African-American males out of racist motives. They have perpetuated a dangerous falsehood.
So B-B-fan, you appear to want to change the topic of discussion from whether the police murder African-American males to a discussion about ways that racism still exists in our society and adversely effects African-Americans. We can do this by starting a different thread. But we first need to acknowledge that this is not what Kap was protesting. He was very specific in his assertion. We also need to either dispute the facts I presented or accept them. If we accept them, then we must acknowledge that Kap’s protest is false. It assumes a condition that does not exist. And we should make every effort to correct this assumption because it perpetuates a narrative that is not only false, but is inflammatory.
Sep 29, 17, 11:39 PM #42
You're working hard to split hairs to suggest that we can only discuss that which you are more specifically opining about as if my contribution is running off with a completely different subject, which it most certainly is not.
You have presented study results that would suggest that there really isn't any high incidences of cops shooting blacks, and while certainly helpful and enlightening information I'm not here to support or refute these statistics because I can't.
I see that your focus is to hold Kap to his accusations and want to focus solely on that, but that's not what I'm completely focused on.
Not every cop, not every citizen, no matter their race is a saint, nor is every one of them a sinner. There are cases where cops have no other choice, there are cases where they do, but shoot anyhow. The fault can't completely be pinned on anyone specifically as there are just too many cases of this and that with various circumstances.
I hear what you're saying that passing wrong information is dangerous and irresponsible, yet I'm not comfortable still that since your statistics don't show that magic number that you weren't comfortable with me suggesting, that we can simply conclude that there is no problem.
I mean no disrespect, but you seem intent on looking for that "Ah ha gotcha" evidence that would completely devalue the concerns that Kap was hoping to express, that I imagine he arrived at by what he was seeing in the news just like all of us, and it effected him to the point that he wanted to take a stand about it.
I'll guess without hesitation that he personally didn't do any studies on it himself, and was at the mercy of the information that was presented to him, and then commented accordingly. It would be my estimation that there was no intent on his part to mislead or misrepresent the facts as he knew them.
Just like you I am concerned about accurate information, but from the results of your study you appear to be content with categorizing things in the "problem box", or the "no problem box", and have concluded that this topic belongs in the "no problem box", and like I had already said I'm just not comfortable with that assessment, just as I'm not comfortable with misleading information.
If you're holding Kap specifically to his comments related to police shootings, then it would be in my estimation that you are missing much of the bigger picture of his concerns that go far deeper than just that topic alone, and is why I have expanded on the topic of racism that you consider to be a change of the topic, which I'll contest is not in the least.
I feel that your concerns for our society are genuine, and that you are a unique person with impressive impeccable attention for details, and well thought out objective logic that displays an incredible level of intelligence so much that I would never dare imply anything short of you likely being a genius to some measurable level.
I really have no intent on poo-pooing away your statistics and concerns of unwarranted social issues that lead to problems where there should be none, but while it's important for everyone to hear the most true and accurate information, I personally don't even need news reports to see with my own two eyes and ears that our culture, though strides have been made, is far from getting our issues with racism right.
Good lord there is still a huge sector that if not a full blown racist, they still suffer from some serious prejudicial problems. Still though the presence of the full blown examples is highly disturbing and saddens me terribly to have to realize that there are really still in 2017 people of this extreme level of hatred.
One thing that is evident to so many is that the so many others who don't see a problem, or resent the suggestion that there is one, are some of the ones more than not are the problem, or at least contribute to it from their inability to acknowledge it.
This whole kneeling thing has ignited this discussion, and while the police shooting topic was a catalyst for it, it is not exclusively and specifically only what this is all about. Your preoccupation with it specifically tells me that this is part of the matter that you might be missing.
Don't feel alone as there's been a lot about this matter that a lot people have been missing, which is quite evident with how many people have made comments that make this ever so painfully clear.
If they believe that this was all about an intent to disrespect the flag then I can understand their objection, yet it wasn't while so many continue to paint that it was no matter how many times they've been told otherwise, and while obsessing over that which it wasn't they did everything imaginable to avoid ever listening to just what was the issue, and even if they heard it they immediately went into defense mode denying that a problem exist.
Though the statistics that you have don't support high numbers of cops shooting blacks, we still very much has a racism problem in our country, and all that has been going on as of late makes it clear that it's time serious discussion be had, and that great strides are made going forward with the hope of making the future a brighter one.
When I began this thread "Taking a Knee - Now What?" my intent was to discuss that it was time to have that discussion and to brainstorm for ways that we as a nation can honestly move forward to have this discussion. Yes indeed when doing so facts and honesty must be present, but denying any problem exist IMO is just not facing it honestly.
Sep 30, 17, 02:25 AM #43
Forgot for a moment that I was reading BGP. Thought I was reading "War and Peace." Thanks Grappler and BBF. Forget taking a knee, I have to take a pee after all THAT reading.
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Sep 30, 17, 10:12 AM #44
He's cleverly figured out a better way to avoid so much scrolling by simply responding or tagging without the need to use the "quote" option which indeed is sufficient, yet I on the other hand continue to, and then the humorous magnitude of both of our lengthy posts becomes even more so noticeable to the point I almost feel that I should be paying membership dues by the byte.
Sep 30, 17, 10:21 AM #45
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