Male vs. Manual/public vs. private question

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    Male vs. Manual/public vs. private question

    Last week I read the Courier Journal's coverage about the history of great rivalry between Male and Manual. One of the interesting facts that caught my attention was the head to head record of Male vs. Manual over the past 18 years. Manual has beaten Male once in that time frame.
    Although these two schools share similarities, an argument can be made that Manual has more of the advantages of a private school when comparing it to Male. Bob Redman of Male recently reasoned that Male is at a disadvantage when competing against private schools because schools like Trinity and St X. can draw students from any school in the county or region, while Male can only get students from the two traditional middle schools in Jefferson Co. Manual, on the other hand, has the advantage that it can draw kids from over 20 Jefferson Co public schools and is rated higher academically than Male. Essentially, Manual's open enrollment, good academics, and athletics is attractive to good students and athletes and draws kids to Manual. Male is limited to working with the kids that are sent to them from Barret and JCTMS , yet Manual's private school-like advantages have not resulted in wins over its disadvantaged rival. Why is this the case?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    Last week I read the Courier Journal's coverage about the history of great rivalry between Male and Manual. One of the interesting facts that caught my attention was the head to head record of Male vs. Manual over the past 18 years. Manual has beaten Male once in that time frame.
    Although these two schools share similarities, an argument can be made that Manual has more of the advantages of a private school when comparing it to Male. Bob Redman of Male recently reasoned that Male is at a disadvantage when competing against private schools because schools like Trinity and St X. can draw students from any school in the county or region, while Male can only get students from the two traditional middle schools in Jefferson Co. Manual, on the other hand, has the advantage that it can draw kids from over 20 Jefferson Co public schools and is rated higher academically than Male. Essentially, Manual's open enrollment, good academics, and athletics is attractive to good students and athletes and draws kids to Manual. Male is limited to working with the kids that are sent to them from Barret and JCTMS , yet Manual's private school-like advantages have not resulted in wins over its disadvantaged rival. Why is this the case?
    Manual's rigorous academic standards are a self limiting factor. I certainly don't think that to play sports, being dumb is a requirement, but at Manual, if you aren't fairly intellectually gifted, you have to work hard to get in, and even harder to keep your head above water. Working that hard and being the type that is totally devoted to football is rare.

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    Is there no traditional or "non-gifted" tract for students at Manual? Are you saying every student at Manual is considered "gifted"?

    If so, the recent improvements in the football program are even more impressive. Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RunFirst
    Is there no traditional or "non-gifted" tract for students at Manual? Are you saying every student at Manual is considered "gifted"?

    If so, the recent improvements in the football program are even more impressive. Thanks!
    There are these magnets at Manual, and no other:

    Math/Science/Technology: I don't think I need to explain.

    High School University: This is sort of the 'general' magnet at Manual. It has similar academic requirements as MST, without the defined program focus. HSU kids tend to be better at English and History. I was HSU.

    Communications/Media Arts: CMA only accepts 30 students a year, and several hundreds apply. In some ways it is the most competitive magnet at Manual, although in my personal opinion it can be the less academically rigorous if you try and navigate which classes you take. On the other hand, your time is eaten up by yearbook staff, extra writing and journalisim classes, radio and tv stuff, etc. Before you ask, this was actually brought up at the Male-Manual game; Fewer football players are this magnet than any other. They certainly aren't overly represented.

    Visual Arts: Again, not much to be said here. I will say that I consider artists to be strangely overrepresented on the football team, but rest assured- they were pretty good artists, as good as they were tacklers. The entrance procedure involves ajudication of art portfolios by the Art teachers, who you might imagine aren't predisposed to letting in an inferior artist for football purposes. The art program is obviously less academically orriented, and the students that take the less challenging academic classes tend to come from VA or our next 'major,'

    Youth Performing Arts School: YPAS is band, orchestra, theatre, choir, etc. And it is VERY hard to get in. I played violin for 8 years prior to high school, and I was pretty good. I was first chair, second violin at Noe Middle, and in the estimation of my Orchestra teacher would have been a first chair at any other high school in the county. For YPAS, I wasn't good enough to take in as a non-major violinist. The time required for YPAS kids is astounding, and you don't see a lot of them risking their good looks or instrumentalists' fingers on the gridiron.

    There is no 'Traditional' magnet that allows for non-rigorous entrance procedures. You have to be smart or artistic to go to Manual.

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    The goat mascot is embarrassing to some people.

    Seriously, stay tuned if you want to see whether game outcomes between the two schools will become more balanced. I think a lot of the reason for the imbalance has been 1) Manual's status as a county-wide magnet school is a more recent development than Male's, 2) In my opinion, overall Male has had better coaches since going Traditional than Manual has had and 3) The best players want to play for the best coaching staffs. The coach that took Manual to the State Championship game in 1988 was outstanding and really built their program up from 1-10 in 1985. The past few years (2001-present), I think Male has slipped past Manual in many of the games because of coaching and offensive philosophy (Manual too reliant on the run). When you come right down to it, the last three years have been toss-ups that have gone Male's way. Finally, Manual has not attracted the quantity of high caliber athletes that Male has (Chris Redman, Ibn Green, Tony Driver, Montrell Jones, Michael Bush to name some examples). Much of this may be related to confidence in the coaching staff. With Manual's program in the capable hands of Coach Nichols, they may start attracting more big-time players.

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    Just so I'm 100 percent sure, could someone define "traditional" w/re to Male? I don't want to have the wrong idea in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue
    Just so I'm 100 percent sure, could someone define "traditional" w/re to Male? I don't want to have the wrong idea in my head.
    School uniforms, teacher standing at the blackboard reading from the textbook, yes sir no ma'am, submission to robotic overlords... Traditional in the sense of a scene painted in the 1950's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    School uniforms, teacher standing at the blackboard reading from the textbook, yes sir no ma'am, submission to robotic overlords... Traditional in the sense of a scene painted in the 1950's.
    Thanks, I figured it was something along those lines, but I was also thinking it referred to academic programs. I bet some of your rivals may bristle at the "robotic overlords" comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H
    The goat mascot is embarrassing to some people.

    Seriously, stay tuned if you want to see whether game outcomes between the two schools will become more balanced. I think a lot of the reason for the imbalance has been 1) Manual's status as a county-wide magnet school is a more recent development than Male's, 2) In my opinion, overall Male has had better coaches since going Traditional than Manual has had and 3) The best players want to play for the best coaching staffs. The coach that took Manual to the State Championship game in 1988 was outstanding and really built their program up from 1-10 in 1985. The past few years (2001-present), I think Male has slipped past Manual in many of the games because of coaching and offensive philosophy (Manual too reliant on the run). When you come right down to it, the last three years have been toss-ups that have gone Male's way. Finally, Manual has not attracted the quantity of high caliber athletes that Male has (Chris Redman, Ibn Green, Tony Driver, Montrell Jones, Michael Bush to name some examples). Much of this may be related to confidence in the coaching staff. With Manual's program in the capable hands of Coach Nichols, they may start attracting more big-time players.
    1) Manual hasn't had the athletes to run more passing orriented offenses. Every year, either the QB isn't right, the WR's aren't right, or a combination of the two. So we do what we can. This year, we have a QB that has the tools, and just needs to make mature decisions. Running the wing-T helps, because we have versatile backs that can catch out of the backfield, relating to point number 2.

    2) On the other hand, we ARE starting to attract more athletes as our reputation for emphasis on SPEED since the turn of the century is looking very attractive to skill position players that might otherwise get lost in the shuffle elsewhere. This is an area that IS evening out with Male, while we're actually building an advantage in the size department over Male, especially D-linemen. Our offensive line will never be too large, because you have to RUN in the wing-T. Our O-Line does tend to be fast, and physical.

    3) On defense, we look VERY attractive to LBers and Dlines, because we run multiple fronts, rotate a lot, and that gives you an opportunity to get yours in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Schue
    Thanks, I figured it was something along those lines, but I was also thinking it referred to academic programs. I bet some of your rivals may bristle at the "robotic overlords" comment.
    If they can't take a joke...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    School uniforms, teacher standing at the blackboard reading from the textbook, yes sir no ma'am, submission to robotic overlords... Traditional in the sense of a scene painted in the 1950's.
    On the other hand, at Manual students wallow in bean bag chairs, staring at their mood rings and discussing their feelings while thin streams of smoke from incense sticks waft gently skyward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H
    On the other hand, at Manual students wallow in bean bag chairs, staring at their mood rings and discussing their feelings while thin streams of smoke from incense sticks waft gently skyward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    Manual's rigorous academic standards are a self limiting factor. I certainly don't think that to play sports, being dumb is a requirement, but at Manual, if you aren't fairly intellectually gifted, you have to work hard to get in, and even harder to keep your head above water. Working that hard and being the type that is totally devoted to football is rare.
    Being a student at Trinity and X is no easy task yet either, but they are devoted to academics and football just like Manual's players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ram54
    1) Manual hasn't had the athletes to run more passing orriented offenses. Every year, either the QB isn't right, the WR's aren't right, or a combination of the two. So we do what we can. This year, we have a QB that has the tools, and just needs to make mature decisions. Running the wing-T helps, because we have versatile backs that can catch out of the backfield, relating to point number 2.

    2) On the other hand, we ARE starting to attract more athletes as our reputation for emphasis on SPEED since the turn of the century is looking very attractive to skill position players that might otherwise get lost in the shuffle elsewhere. This is an area that IS evening out with Male, while we're actually building an advantage in the size department over Male, especially D-linemen. Our offensive line will never be too large, because you have to RUN in the wing-T. Our O-Line does tend to be fast, and physical.

    3) On defense, we look VERY attractive to LBers and Dlines, because we run multiple fronts, rotate a lot, and that gives you an opportunity to get yours in the game.
    In essence, Manual will get better athletes and improve the program due to good coaching and the style of football played which is resulting in wins and narrowing the gap with Male. Coaching, style, and winning is attracting athletes which is helping gain an advantage. This sounds familiar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    In essence, Manual will get better athletes and improve the program due to good coaching and the style of football played which is resulting in wins and narrowing the gap with Male. Coaching, style, and winning is attracting athletes which is helping gain an advantage. This sounds familiar.
    Yeah it's called building a program. Just because Male has done it and Manual is doing it, it doesn't mean that it is not worth coming to the table and discussing the issues the public schools seem to have with the private schools.

    I know what you are getting at, but there are differences. Here is the bottom line, Manual is kinda like Notre Dame in that there is a history there, and there is a resurgance, but the big problem is finding the athletes that want to go to such a rigorous academic program or can. St. X and Trinity are like USC and Michigan in that they are good schools that draw from across the nation as well as their own backyards. And Male is like Miami a great team every year that gets pretty much everyone from their own backyard yet still is a top team every year. At least that is how I see it. Trinity and St.X don't have an insurrmountable advantage over these schools, but what the real thing the public private debate is currently ignoring is how long that there has been NO debate. Publics have been complianing for years about certian issues and the basic reply has been, no reply, or a defensive denial.

    Prop 20 will not come to pass in the end ( I believe), and honestly I think the public schools don't really want it to, but I think it is a wake up call to those on the private side that deny that there is any issues to discuss at all when 75% of the public schools seem to think that there is an issue.

    Personaly I want to play the private schools forever, and I hope prop 20 fails , but I think that there should be a certain amount of honest dialoge going on between the administrators to work out these differences. And this petty back biting and bulldogging has to end. How come Manual and Male are the ones being brought up in these threads? I think the answer is that we are the two schools that most likely stand in the way of total dominiation by St. X and Trinity, and that makes us the "enemy". But in an honest dialogue and not the sniping and rhetoric of some holy crusade fights that this has devovled into Manual, Male, St.X and Trinity fans seem to all agree that we want to continue playing for the 4A title. The question is how do we proceed from here? The Publics are flexing their muscle to get the privates attention, is that going to work or are we too far gone now?

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