Male vs. Manual/public vs. private question

Page 7 of Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam Who are you to judge our action or inaction? You are right I'm against prop 20, but if you expect me join the slander ... 117 comments | 5801 Views | Go to page 1 →

  1. #91

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    I and WE, this argument should not be about what the ADULTs(?) want. The settlement should come down to what is best for the students, the players of all sports, and the need to detmine if the playing field is level and if not what can be done to correct the situation. It is not just about football. The animosity that prop 20 has brought to the surface is appalling!! I am embarrassed for both sides of the argument . I am how ever amazed by the number of adults that identify themselves so deeply with a high achool sports program that anything that challanges their program is met with anger and venom. Shame on us as adults it we are teaching this lesson to the current generation of high school students.students
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtrabasehit
    I and WE, this argument should not be about what the ADULTs(?) want. The settlement should come down to what is best for the students, the players of all sports, and the need to detmine if the playing field is level and if not what can be done to correct the situation. It is not just about football. The animosity that prop 20 has brought to the surface is appalling!! I am embarrassed for both sides of the argument . I am how ever amazed by the number of adults that identify themselves so deeply with a high achool sports program that anything that challanges their program is met with anger and venom. Shame on us as adults it we are teaching this lesson to the current generation of high school students.students
    When lies are being spread and accepted as truth about something you love, I guess you put your head in the sand.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by RunFirst
    Get your facts straight ram95. The website says, and I quote:
    "Shadowing at Manual is ONLY for Private School students in the 8th grade."
    Admissions > Shadowing

    So you are saying public school children can shadow. Is there a special “pass” they must attain first? Who selects the children that get to shadow? What is the criteria?

    Why is Manual targeting Private School kids? I wonder how many private school children take the place of public school children? Who selects the children that get accepted? If I were a parent of a public school child that did not get “accepted”… LOL!!!!
    Ok you are right now, however in the past public school kids were allowed to shadow. Because I shadowed at Manual and Eastern. Now it apperently is against the rules for JCPS students to shadow at JCPS schools. I don't know why, but that is not Manual's fault or some conspiricy to recruit private school kids. But again this is not going to help the privates is it.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Tell
    Wow people from Manual have thin skins.

    We have to prove that perceptions are incorrect and we're not supposed to get upset with all that is going on and all of the accusations and innuendos that have come up as a result of this yet when it is pointed out that many of the same perceptions that apply to private schools also apply to Manual the Rams here go ballistic. So be it, but don't blame us for the unfavorable light your school is being portrayed in here, blame your principal. You all say that you don't agree with Prop 20 but how many of you have actually stated that to Keepers? You don't like how your school is being portrayed here, have you made Keepers aware of what is heppening? There are many of us on the private side that believe regardless of what is proposed it will NEVER be good enough for the public school supporters of Prop 20, Keepers included. Why has Manual takes such ire for this? Does anyone really believe that if private schools are removed from state championship competition that schools like Atherton and Iroquois will suddenly start winning state championships? This proposal IMVHO will only directly help a very small number of schools and Manual is one of those. That is why many of us see Keepers as such a hypocrit and since she is the principal of your school, your school gets drug down with her. It's just a matter of perception.
    And if that is your only idea to help the situation then you are pushing prop 20 to pass.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    You know what forget it. Trinity Alum you asked why we were not offering suggestions to help. This is why, we can't have a debate without this and it is not worth it to explain to every poster that comes into the debate midstream that we aren't accusing the privates of anything we are just trying to find middle ground to talk from. To me this is not worth it. If we can't debate on here without trading jabs then maybe this prop 20 thing will happen, if this is how the administrators are going to act too.
    Here is the problem. By asking us to prove that we are not cheats, when there is no evidence that we are (and a great deal of evidence that we aren't) you are in effect, accusing us of cheating. You seem to be VERY upset that someone questioned the admission practices at Manual. I have not questioned them because I have no reason to. Why don't we have the admission forms for all applicants to Manual submitted to a clearing house so that they can be reviewed to prove there is no preference given to athletes. Do you see how insulting that is? It starts from a presumption of guilt and asks that you try to disprove it. There are rules in place that govern financial aid. I am VERY confident that Trinity follows them. If I had evidence that they don't I'd turn them in because that is not what I want for Trinity.
    The whole idea that there is this big secret plan to give improper financial aid is crazy. How in the world does anyone expect that to stay secret? If we were out to buy a championship, as some has pointed out, it would be a lot cheaper to buy one in basketball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram95
    If I go up to you and shake your hand and in my palm there is three hundred dollar bills, how is that traceable? How would St.X or Trinity know about it? There is no way. How can I prove it happened? You can't. But what you can do is look at the percentages and tell that just as many poor urban students are getting as much aid as athletes and there families are making ends meet, or if you don't find any then you know something is rotten in Denmark. If things are above board as everyone says then this would be hard data to prove it. If not then you know that something is going on and needs to be addressed, either way it is not an endictment of the schools administration, it is a chance to make the system work in the open for everyone to see. Don't think of it as an accusation think of it as a way to improve the system already in place to ensure that things are working properly.
    How do I know that there aren't kids getting hundred dollar handshakes to attend Mythical Public High? Can you prove they aren't? That is why this whole prove it doesn't happen approach is insulting and unworkable.

  7. #97

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    Guys, let's quit the arguing for a minute and look at another side of the public vs private debate.

    There was some talk earlier on about the fact that parental involvement and alumni support played a part in why T and X was "perceived" to be better than the publics.

    To that point, I attended a lot of football over the weekend. On Saturday, I sat and watched 4 games at Papa John's, the Jefferson County Youth Optimist Championships. The 4 games were for kids in 1st/2nd grade, 3rd/4th grade, 5th/6th grade, and 7th/8th grade. A couple of games were excellent to watch, a couple were hard to watch. I'd say the crowds over the 4 games never exceeded 500-750 fans per game.

    To compare, I attended the 3 Toy Bowl games at Trinity on Sunday. The games were all 7th/8th grade kids, and all 3 games were competitive and enjoyable. The weather was the same both Saturday and Sunday. The difference was that there were thousands in attendance. The new Trinity stadium seats 4,500. The stands were about 75% filled all day and there were throngs of people standing around the fences. The games were broadcast live by X's radio station and were covered in streaming audio via Trinity's website by T's radio.

    To me, this is where a BIG PART of the difference lies in this public/private debate. The kids grow up from a wee lad to high school age with a HUGE amount of parental involvement and interest. This carries over into their high school years. According to the game program from yesterday, this was the 57th Toy Bowl, which means it goes back to 1948. I've watched many a Toy Bowl game over the years, and the crowds have always been huge, even when it's cold and raining.

    I'm no Einstein, but watching these 7 games on Saturday/Sunday really struck a nerve with me since we're in the middle of the great debate this year.

    Can anyone tell me exactly why there is such family/alumni involvement in the CSAA system while there is not much at all in the public system? I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I'd just like to know everyone's feelings.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by RunFirst
    Thanks for the link. This is VERY INTERESTING!!!

    “Students are selected to attend duPont Manual in a competitive process that evaluates achievement test scores, academic achievement, personal essays, teacher recommendations, as well as portfolios and performing arts auditions. Jefferson County residents are not charged tuition; however, tuition is charged for out-of-county students.

    I also see there is a Shadowing Program, and guess what. It’s ONLY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL KIDS.

    So the requirements are:
    1. Complete an application.
    2. Write an essay answering “If you were to describe yourself by a quotation, which quotation would you select and why?”
    3. Complete an activities and interest form. I wonder if Football, Soccer, etc receives special attention?
    4. Have two people fill out a recommendation form. I guess if one is Coach Nichols, that would help.

    Funny. I thought this was going to be hard to get into Manual. I wonder WHO is responsible to SELECTING what children are granted ADMISION to Manual? If I were a parent of a child that wanted to attend an actual magnet program, but that space was given to a child to attend “High School University” that listed football/soccer as an interest on their activity form, I’d be REAL upset.

    Keep thinking your school is being cheated by those Catholic Schools. This stuff is really sad.
    I went to the website to double check the OUT OF COUNTY STUDENTS pay tuition sentence. Is this true? The way the website reads, Manual will accept out of county students for a fee. If this is true, how many kids at the school are from outside the county.
    On a side note, I did not create the thread to put down Male or Manual. I simply want to point out that one public school with private school-like advantages was getting beaten regularly by another school who is limited to a few middle schools as feeders. The point was that the advantages don't translate into wins.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr1

    ...
    Can anyone tell me exactly why there is such family/alumni involvement in the CSAA system while there is not much at all in the public system? I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I'd just like to know everyone's feelings.
    You have hit the nail on the head on why the privates are so successful. There is a great deal of football interest in the Catholic community.

    The reason that the involvement is larger in the Catholic leagues as opposed to the public leagues is because of a few reasons. The first is that football has traditionally been a source of pride amoung Catholic communities for generations. Secondly the Catholic leagues are (although not officially) tied with schools bringing more interest, the public teams have virtually no affiliation with the local middle schools. Thirdly I think it is fair to say that children who attend private schools are more likely to have parents that show interest in thier childs activities.

    So in the Toy bowl you probably saw students, aunts, uncles, and former players at the public bowls you probably saw mostly just parents.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    I went to the website to double check the OUT OF COUNTY STUDENTS pay tuition sentence. Is this true? The way the website reads, Manual will accept out of county students for a fee. If this is true, how many kids at the school are from outside the county.
    On a side note, I did not create the thread to put down Male or Manual. I simply want to point out that one public school with private school-like advantages was getting beaten regularly by another school who is limited to a few middle schools as feeders. The point was that the advantages don't translate into wins.
    Yes but it is true for all magnet students in Jefferson Co. I knew of two when I went to Manual, in both cases thier parents moved during thier high school years. I would have a feeling that this mostly applies to YPAS students due to the unavailability of similar programs anywhere else. I don't think I know of any cases of a player doing such. The actual number who do this is probably less than ten.

    As far as Male is concerned I have a strong feeling that they have taken students from outside TJ and Barrett.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity alum
    Here is the problem. By asking us to prove that we are not cheats, when there is no evidence that we are (and a great deal of evidence that we aren't) you are in effect, accusing us of cheating. You seem to be VERY upset that someone questioned the admission practices at Manual. I have not questioned them because I have no reason to. Why don't we have the admission forms for all applicants to Manual submitted to a clearing house so that they can be reviewed to prove there is no preference given to athletes. Do you see how insulting that is? It starts from a presumption of guilt and asks that you try to disprove it. There are rules in place that govern financial aid. I am VERY confident that Trinity follows them. If I had evidence that they don't I'd turn them in because that is not what I want for Trinity.
    The whole idea that there is this big secret plan to give improper financial aid is crazy. How in the world does anyone expect that to stay secret? If we were out to buy a championship, as some has pointed out, it would be a lot cheaper to buy one in basketball.
    Look I am not accusing you guys of anything. Reguardless that is the perception that is out there!! IF Manual had been to 7 out of the last 15 championships I AM SURE THEY WOULD ACCUSE US of that. But we aren't the ones that are collecting all the hardware. When you dominate like these two teams have you are going to be in the spotlight. You might be right, there might be public schools that are not above board. But in the same token you have to expect that the team that is dominating like yours do, and that have certain advantages Ie. title 9 and others, you are going to catch more heat then others. You are not going to be able to point to a team that hasn't even been to the championship in 17 years and say that we are the problem and then expect the vote to go your way. Now you can either point at us or do something to fix the situation now facing you. I am simply trying to suggest something, if you have a better idea then put it out there. But please let's not put our heads in the sand and act like Manual is the only school to be behind this, or that all of us are out to get you guys. If you take offense to the idea of having a clearing house then you are basically looking guilty to alot of people. If you aren't then why not allow them? I am not talking about giving out names and numbers here guys. We are just talking about providing stats on stuff you say is already happening.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam
    You have hit the nail on the head on why the privates are so successful. There is a great deal of football interest in the Catholic community.

    The reason that the involvement is larger in the Catholic leagues as opposed to the public leagues is because of a few reasons. The first is that football has traditionally been a source of pride amoung Catholic communities for generations. Secondly the Catholic leagues are (although not officially) tied with schools bringing more interest, the public teams have virtually no affiliation with the local middle schools. Thirdly I think it is fair to say that children who attend private schools are more likely to have parents that show interest in thier childs activities.

    So in the Toy bowl you probably saw students, aunts, uncles, and former players at the public bowls you probably saw mostly just parents.
    Great assessment of the CSAA and its players and parents. Theses same kids are parents are the reason why Trinity and X are consistently good. Almost all kids on Trinity and X come from these schools. I think this feeder system is overlooked or not understood by many in the state so they can't understand the winning consistency.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    Great assessment of the CSAA and its players and parents. Theses same kids are parents are the reason why Trinity and X are consistently good. Almost all kids on Trinity and X come from these schools. I think this feeder system is overlooked or not understood by many in the state so they can't understand the winning consistency.
    Except.

    The rest of Louisville has mostly a joke of a feeder system, but the rest of the state cooks it up right, or at least that's my impression.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by RowdyRedRam
    Yes but it is true for all magnet students in Jefferson Co. I knew of two when I went to Manual, in both cases thier parents moved during thier high school years. I would have a feeling that this mostly applies to YPAS students due to the unavailability of similar programs anywhere else. I don't think I know of any cases of a player doing such. The actual number who do this is probably less than ten.

    As far as Male is concerned I have a strong feeling that they have taken students from outside TJ and Barrett.
    This is bizarre. Keepers, Sexton, and others know that kids from outside of Jefferson Co. are attending Jefferson Co. schools and then say the playing field is not level because we have a few kids outside of Jefferson Co. attending Trinity and X. There may be only a few at Manual, but they are obviously bright, talented students, who help give Manual an edge in CATS testing and overall school performance.
    You say that you don't know of any who play sports and I believe you, but the opportunity exists for any of these students to play sports if he or she chooses. The future star quarterback at Manual could come from New Albany.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90Rock
    This is bizarre. Keepers, Sexton, and others know that kids from outside of Jefferson Co. are attending Jefferson Co. schools and then say the playing field is not level because we have a few kids outside of Jefferson Co. attending Trinity and X. There may be only a few at Manual, but they are obviously bright, talented students, who help give Manual an edge in CATS testing and overall school performance.
    You say that you don't know of any who play sports and I believe you, but the opportunity exists for any of these students to play sports if he or she chooses. The future star quarterback at Manual could come from New Albany.
    One of the many reason I have never supported prop 20.

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